Quantcast

In effort to fight gun crimes, federal authorities are going after suspected straw buyers

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Aim1, Oct 2, 2019.

  1. Aim1

    Aim1 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,004
    JeffG likes this.
  2. rb288

    rb288 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
    Messages:
    122
    And yet, the Federal government can, and does, knowingly, sell guns to criminal "straw buyers", and get away with it, i.e. "fast and furious".
     
  3. fireside44

    fireside44 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2009
    Messages:
    968
    Over 10k gun laws on the books currently. I'm squarely in the "need fewer gun laws" category. It's not really possible to enforce that many laws. Many of them are silly, like 922r stuff which is just unconstitutional crap to make it harder and more expensive to build or buy.

    And since when didn't the government go after straw buyers? As long as you aren't with the government straw buying has always been pretty closely monitored. I've had FFL's tell me about straw buyers the ATF called them back about several times.
     
    JeffG likes this.
  4. FAS1

    FAS1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    746
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    How about arresting people that falsify a 4473? If they do that and are denied for lying (felony) their next step is to illegally obtain one. We just had a town hall because a couple city council members want a gun buyback which our police chief doesn't support and says will do little to prevent gun crimes. Mike at Sons of Liberty Gun Works led the charge to do something useful and told them he has a stack of 4473's that were denied that no one has ever had an interest in following up on with charges.
     
  5. fireside44

    fireside44 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2009
    Messages:
    968
    I don't think the manpower is there to do it. No one ever expected gun rushes where stores like Cabelas had a dozen kiosks set up just to run 4473's and they all have long lines at them with people buying guns. Gov agencies are models of inefficiency.
     
    Steel Horse Rider and JeffG like this.
  6. edwardware

    edwardware Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,811
    Good. One of the few tidbits of sense out of Washington this season has been the proposal that every denied 4473 NICS check be refered to LE for investigation.

    Sure, 99% of them may go ignored for lack of resources, but it's a start and it's probably a relatively efficient way to detect Prohibited Persons who are trying to arm themselves.
     
    JeffG and Bfh_auto like this.
  7. boom boom
    • Contributing Member

    boom boom Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2007
    Messages:
    3,554
    Location:
    GA
    One of the issues is that the 4473 is a "federal" charge but for prosecution at the state level, states would need a concurrent law prohibiting misinformation on the federal form in some sort of way. Currently, it is true that the ATF and other government alphabet agencies largely ignore 4473's except when they are already investigating a subject for other crimes (one straw buyer case that went to the Supreme Court was where they suspected the cop of pulling a bank robbery and were investigating him for that.)

    Thus, for widespread elimination of straw buyers, you will need state and local law enforcement and prosecutors along with empowering state laws to get at them. The lowest hanging fruit is felon in possession of a firearm but proving an illegal attempt to acquire a firearm is a far different thing that requires proving intent beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury. Far easier to prosecute is the possession charge where it requires no knowledge from the suspect and simply for the police to demonstrate possession of the firearm by a prohibited person.

    There is the same problem charging other 4473 violations such as lying about substance abuse, lying about being a citizen, lying about most other disqualifiers on the form as well, etc. The easiest, if you will, would be the denial of a felony record and that would be no slam dunk. Due to plea bargaining and the vagaries of state laws, a defendant could make the reasonable reply that they were unaware that they were a felon when they answered that form and the prosecution would have to show knowledge necessary of whether a defendant had intent to violate the law by knowing they were prohibited and pursuing the sale anyway.

    Another way of dealing with straw buyers would be stings, and that sort of things that resulted in such famous actions as the Fast and Furious.

    The other ways to get these straw buyers is a) charging them with running an unlicensed firearms business (but this will catch up collectors and frequent traders as well), or b) allowing them to be charged for the crimes committed with firearms that they sold as a felony accomplice to that crime (which might also get an innocent seller into trouble).

    We as a community need to figure out a way to address the straw buyer issue as that constitutes roughly half of the firearms used in illegal activities and that means that new state laws that will crimp some folks desires for unpapered firearm transactions and frequent firearm traders engaged in private trades. It also means making prosecutions of such a priority for state prosecutors and law enforcement. The alternative would be a hypercharged built up ATF with large increases in personnel, new federal laws, additional prosecutors, etc.

    Project Exile, done in part with the approval and suggestion of the NRA, demonstrates that vigorous enforcement of firearm laws by federal/state/local taskforces can reduce gun crime in a selected city (Richmond) that is suffering waves of violence. That requires political will that is lacking at various levels of government and is why something like that was not pursued in cities like St. Louis, or Chicago.
     
    40-82 and theotherwaldo like this.
  8. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    10,401
    Location:
    Forestburg, Texas
    That would be good, but that only gets a fraction of the folks that falsify a 4473. Remember that the only persons that see a 4473 is the gun shop folks. A buyer with no record can still lie and nobody will catch it unless he breaks the law with the gun later.
     
  9. PWC

    PWC Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    404
    It appears that in many folks opinion, the operative word is "only" and "but" that is preventing enforcement of existing laws.

    If the political will existed to enforce the existing gun laws, regardless of class or status of suspect, it would affect only those...

    The law will only....but what about...

    It's time to begin to take control even if it only.... then move on to the next "only" or "but". As they are cleared and become effective start on another "only".
     
  10. Paul Toms

    Paul Toms Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2019
    Messages:
    108
    Location:
    Sadly, for now, California
    Here in California, straws are already illegal and they should be cracking down on straw buyers! <sarcasm>
     
  11. 748

    748 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2006
    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    clovis, NM
    OMG enforce existing laws on people who actually break them, what a concept!
     
  12. .308 Norma

    .308 Norma Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2016
    Messages:
    1,945
    Location:
    SE Idaho
    :rofl:
     
  13. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    Messages:
    3,453
    Location:
    In the Wild Horse Desert of Texas
    Enforce existing law?
    Where's the political profit in that?
     
  14. PWC

    PWC Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    404
    A growing base of conservative constituents.
     
    theotherwaldo likes this.
  15. Steel Horse Rider

    Steel Horse Rider Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    2,324
    Location:
    Loveland, Colorado
    It is the same with fake ID's and liquor sales. A customer of mine has hundreds of fake driver's licenses that he has confiscated in the course of business in his liquor store. He regularly takes sacks of them down to the police department but they are not interested in pursuing those who use the fake ID's or those who produce the fake ID's, but they sure are interested in fining bar and liquor store owners and employees who get caught in the LE stings that they run on a regular basis....
     
    Demi-human and .455_Hunter like this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice