In reality, how tough to get an FFL

Status
Not open for further replies.

mgkdrgn

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
3,909
Location
Lexington, SC
Ok, I've read the BATF regs, I've read the SLED regs here in SC.

Just how difficult -is it- to get an FFL? I'd like to start a home based business buying/selling via the internet, facilitating out of state transfers, etc. Would like this to provide 50% of my income within 2 years, 100% in 5 years and beyond, so I'm not looking to be a "kitchen table" FFL.

I have no criminal record, do have a CCW. Will have a gun/fire safe on premises next week.

I don't see anything in the regs that appears to be a problem for me ... but I'm curious what the -real- situation is as opposed to how it looks on paper.

Thanks in advance.
 
Im not an expert on this (far from it), but I thought that they would not issue FFLs to people that were operating out of a residential address. In other words, you had to have a business location to put on the FFL. However, I have seen of people on the internet that appear to have avoided that but I don't know how. I am quite curious myself.
 
ok here is the deal...

it depends on what state you are in..

im in florida in florida you cant have a ffl without a storefront.. online sales get tricky to get approved for ( if your just going to do online sales)

then you take the application fill it out.. get your photo your finger prints etc... pay for the backround check, pay for the application fee...

then you wait

and wait

and wait

and then you call to see whats up
and they let you know that they have lost your paperwork and you need to do it all over again.... that happens about 2x they never seem to loose the checks but the paperwork has a mysterious nature to disapear...

well after they finally get their stuff sorted then you have an interview with an local atf office.. where they do a personal interview...

then after that if they approve it, it will be a couple more weeks- months.. and you will recieve your liscense... (my process took about 9 months) and cost over $2k

after this you will get random inspections... they can only come for a full inspection 1x /yr and sometimes dont come but since they have increased the size of their staff, and downsized the amount of ffls you can pretty much expect a full inspection at 1x/yr ...

a full inspection is basically a number cruncher coming in and pretty much putting a halt to buisness (depending on how much inventory you have)

some inspectors are cooler and more knowledgeable than others...

either way in conclusion, if you ever have a question to ask atf.. make sure you ask at least 10 atf people the same question... because you will recieve different answers from each 1.... after you get the answers.. take the most rediculously illogical and stupid response and adhere to that 1 you should be pretty much safe...

if you have any questions feel free to pm me!


gl we need more ffl holders!

if you can deal with the heartache of dealing with atf its very rewarding...

most people cant do what they enjoy for a living... just a rare few of us
 
When I applied for my first FFL in NY, it took about 2 months. They came in, gave me a lecture on how to keep records, answered any questions I had and wished me good luck. Of course, that was with a storefront... zoning is the probably the biggest issue you will face.

Did you know that in NY (not sure about anywhere else) a 16 year old can work in a gunshop, and can even hand firearms to customers to look at, but is forbidden to shoot themselves unless they are with a parent/guardian/military officer/police officer? Kind of blew my mind....
 
As mentioned, it is based on zoning laws.

When I applied, my address said Austin, but technically I lived about 300 yards outside the city line. The ATF called me to explain that they would not process my application, because the city of Austin had a law that firearms business could not opperate out of a home.

I told them that I didn't actually live inside the city line, and they checked on it, saw I was correct, and approved my application.

It must be "legal" at every level, from state law down to your HOA if you have one. I had to present a letter from the HOA to the ATF saying that they were OK with my business.

If everything is OK where you live, it is simply a matter of filling out the right paperwork and waiting. I think my total process took about 7 months.
 
Zoning regulations is the hold up. I have no zoning in my village so I operate from home. I filled out the application, paid the fee, waited a month and a half, the ATF did a compliance interview over the phone (the nearest office is 12 hours away) and I got my license mailed overnight.

There is no federal law that states you need a storefront. It states you must have a "premises". You can't have an FFL for a PO Box or parking lot. You need a permanent structure.
 
ieszu said:
Did you know that in NY (not sure about anywhere else) a 16 year old can work in a gunshop, and can even hand firearms to customers to look at, but is forbidden to shoot themselves unless they are with a parent/guardian/military officer/police officer? Kind of blew my mind....
Do you know that in NY it is illegal to even touch a pistol without a license? And that as a non-resident it is impossible to get said license, unless former/current police, military, or private security?

Some animals are more equal than others.
 
I was looking into doing the same but the zoning restriction got me. The downfall was that the city I lived in would not allow a store at my home where people came to the front door and of course the BATFE requires that you have store hours.

The one work around is to rent a table or a place of business for a few hours/week. I've heard of people doing this before but have never used one. So if they sell stuff, it's only on Wednesdays from 5:00 pm to 9:00 pm. This is just a loop hole to get started. Once you start doing business, you can expand.

But this is of course if you can't do a business out of your home (or if you don't want to do it out of your home). Remember, if you do it out of your home, the ATF now has legal right to search your place of business if they see fit. If you have a secondary building on your property, this is better because they can only search that building (I thought this would be a huge inconvenience that I didn't want to subject my wife/kids to).

So I went through a lot of steps but fell short of obtaining my FFL.
 
Remember, if you do it out of your home, the ATF now has legal right to search your place of business if they see fit.
They can come once a year during regular business hours for the compliance visit. They can come during regular business hours to follow up on thefts or tracing. The will need a warrant if by any other means.
 
jose freakshow has it correctly...

and to add to that.. the atf is not even supposed to show up without calling and setting up an appointment first, however if you give your inspector flack odds are you will get flack... and his or her flack will be worse than your flack for sure... not to mention if you refuse them to start their inspection... they will inspect you with more scrutiny than ever it is ill advised...
it is advised to have a very good lawyer on staff though present for any time the atf is there... atf word > your word.... your word + laywer word > atf inspector word..
 
Well, so far I haven't heard anything bad that I didn't already know about. SC does allow residential "retail" gun stores, and to the best of my knowledge there are no zoning issues where I am (still asking around on that one!)

The paperwork, inventory control, record keeping et all are nothing new. My formal education is in warehousing/inventory control, and I spend some 15 years doing that kind of work with medical supplies (tracking all raw materials and finished goods by product AND lot number, cradle to grave) and dealing with inspections from the FDA, BOB, DEA and NRC.

Thanks for the advice guys ... keep it coming. I may pull this off yet. :)
 
This question gets asked so often that I keep a response written up and saved on my computer. Here you go, from someone who went through it earlier this year.

Steps to getting a Federal Firearms License (FFL) at your home:

1) Check your local zoning ordinances and HOA CCR's, if any. If either document prohibits you from obtaining a business license at your residence, go no further. The ATF will not issue you an FFL.

2) Check with your homeowner's insurance to see how much it will go up if you run a firearm business out of your home. Hopefully you have a local agent who you've personally known and worked with for many years, as the flunkie on the toll-free call center phone will probably freak at your questions. You may find the increase in premium alone makes getting an FFL unviable.

3) Another question for yourself - are you comfortable filing federal and state tax returns every quarter, and state sales taxes every month? If not, add CPA services to your list of expenses.

4) If you've gotten to this point, find an attorney to help you form a S Corp, C Corp, or LLC (most folks go with an LLC). This is not the time to go with a DIY document off the internet, especially if you plan on dealing in NFA toys. Besides, being in the firearms biz, you're going to need an attorney sooner or later anyway; might as well get to know one now.

5) Once your corp is formed, obtain any necessary state and local business licenses to run a business. If you don't have these, the ATF will not issue an FFL. See #1 (and yes, they go to your county or city courthouse and check).

6) Call the ATF Distribution Center (703-455-7801) and ask for an application packet. It will include several copies of the application (no carbons unfortunately), fingerprint cards, and instructions.

Now, on to your business plan:

I'd like to start a home based business buying/selling via the internet, facilitating out of state transfers, etc. Would like this to provide 50% of my income within 2 years, 100% in 5 years and beyond, so I'm not looking to be a "kitchen table" FFL.

Actually, what you want to do is the definition of a "kitchen table" FFL. Repeat this three times: "The only way to make a small fortune in the gun business is to start with a large one."

Our first "official" year in business was last year, since the LLC formed late last year but we didn't receive our FFL until this year. Having only start-up costs and no income, last year was a killer on paper. Let's just say I didn't quit my day job, and still haven't.

This year, barring us winning a major .gov contract or manna falling from heaven, we're on track to break even or make a little $. Our biggest money-maker is on items we produce, followed by gunsmithing and repair work. Not a whole lot of income comes from sales of other manufacturers' stuff or from transfers.

Having said that, we have a very different business model than yours, as we're a manufacturer/gunsmith/service shop, and not a retailer. We do have an 01 with a storefront less than a mile from us, and he sends people looking for a gunsmith to us as he can't afford to keep one on staff. In return, he calls us if someone brings a trade-in and he can't easily evaluate its condition (some guns he knows, others not so much).
 
ieszu... so they are "allowed" to shoot themselves if their with their parents?

I meant that they can actually shoot the gun... rather than having to wait until they are 21 and get a pistol license. But I understand that my wording was a bit strange :)

Do you know that in NY it is illegal to even touch a pistol without a license? And that as a non-resident it is impossible to get said license, unless former/current police, military, or private security?

It is not "illegal". It is frowned upon, however someone who does not have a license can rent a gun at the range and shoot there. Also, If 2 people go to the range, so long as the licensee is within arms reach of the gun, the other person can shoot it. However, if something happens (guy goes crazy, ND, etc.) the licensee will be punished as well as an accessory, even if there was nothing he could do to stop it.
 
ieszu... so they are "allowed" to shoot themselves if their with their parents?

Gotta jump on the semantics and grammar wagon. "Their" should be "they're" in the first occurrence.

mgkdrgn, good luck! I wish I was in SC so I could pump some money into your business.
 
Well while you are grammar-policing, then you may as well point out that "they are 'allowed' to shoot themselves" doesn't precisely make the correct point, does it?

"Themselves" in this case is the object of the verb "shoot" as it is constructed. I don't know why anyone would want to shoot themselves regardless of their age, even in the presence of their parents. But my suspicion is that the poster wants "themselves" to be the ones allowed, and they actually want the gun to be shot, in which case the sentence should say something more like:

They, themselves, are allowed to shoot if they're with their parents.

or

They are allowed to shoot the gun themselves if they're with their parents.
 
Im not an expert on this (far from it), but I thought that they would not issue FFLs to people that were operating out of a residential address.

As long as you have a business license to operate a business out of your home, that's not a problem.
 
freakshow...that must have been a "scare" tactic that the local BATFE told me. And it worked. I was told that if anything was reported "shady", even though I didn't anticipate any shady dealings, that they could come and search my entire house.

And an instance was...if paperwork was filled out incorrectly, they could come and do as they pleased. Not sure if this is correct, but it was enough of a scare that I just decided to let it go.
 
jose if you read my post... when talking to the atf ask 10 people then take the response that sounds the dumbest and illogical and thats probably the right 1...

i can sight specific examples in a pm if your intersested!
 
ieszu said:
Bennett Prescott said:
Do you know that in NY it is illegal to even touch a pistol without a license? And that as a non-resident it is impossible to get said license, unless former/current police, military, or private security?
It is not "illegal". It is frowned upon, however someone who does not have a license can rent a gun at the range and shoot there. Also, If 2 people go to the range, so long as the licensee is within arms reach of the gun, the other person can shoot it. However, if something happens (guy goes crazy, ND, etc.) the licensee will be punished as well as an accessory, even if there was nothing he could do to stop it.
Then why won't any gun store let me touch a pistol? I can buy one, have it shipped to my FFL, and receive it in my state, but I can't touch one in NY. If it is not illegal, it has become practically so.
 
Yes, it all has to do with local laws and zoning, Here in Fl, if you're zoned for it, you can have a shop out of a doghouse.

It took me less than 30 days from start to finish. And I had a hassle with the county with Zoning.

I originally went for an 01 Lic, but m not zoned for retail. I'm zoned light industrial. so, the ATf said no go.. but the ATF guy gave me a suggestion..go with an 07 Manufacturer lic.

I didn't plan on doing much retail, mainly mail order installs of my bottom metal. Ding. I was home free... works for me.. My ATF guy rocks.. I had my Lic in hand in less than 30 days, and it cost $50 bux less than the 01 FFL, AND I can manufacture weapons. So its time to make some AR-15 lowers and 10/22 receivers. Kool..:)
 
The 01 gets a discount on renewal where the 07 is a straight $150 with no discount. But it's nice having all the options on one license.

With an 07 FFL this is what you can do:

  • Manufacture Title I Firearms
  • Deal in Title I Firearms
  • Manufacture Ammunition and Components
  • Gunsmithing
  • Pay the Class 2 SOT tax to make NFA weapons
  • With the 02 SOT you can also deal in NFA weapons
  • Occasional Importing of Firearms

My ATF people were very cool too. One dude and later one very hot chick. The ATF dude owns an MP5-10mm. Very easy going bunch. I had an issue that came up and called them to ask how to fix it. They told me how to do it and I asked for hard copy of instructions for my records and he emailed me while we were on the phone. Their policy was basically if you catch something, let us know and we can correct it. If we catch something on a compliance visit, we have to write a violation. They truly seemed that they wanted to leave me alone and let me run my business.

My office where I conduct business is one room inside from the living room (entrance to my home). They were very polite and made sure they had my permission to come in farther to do the inspection. Very respective that it was my home. I asked if they wanted to see the area where I machine and such, they asked if we could walk around outside so they didn't intrude on my personal space. Nothing but professionalism thus far.
 
so far my atf experiences were less then amusing our first 1 was retarded and made a whole bunch of mistakes and then tried to write us up for them but when we showed him they were his clerical errors he became pissy, and called in his manager who was incompetent as well.....

our 2nd was cool as hell he was actually a gun guy instead of like a pure accountant... no complaints there

our third was a good looking girl who would cite you if someone didn't dot an i like literally the dot was to small or whatever...

either way we are still open... so i guess thats good

ps i still cant have them clarify why it says in the Florida atf book if we know them to have purchased a gun legally they dont need a waiting period and then 3 paragraphs down it says everyone needs a waiting period excluding cwl holders, and trades pistol for pistol...

regardless we choose to go on the safe side everyone gets waits minus the exceptions... i will post a picture of the law and let you guys see it and get a good laugh!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top