Inconsequential increments, the fallacy of over analyzing a hunting round.

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Laphroaig said:
It would be hard to argue that the focus of hunting has changed from woodsmanship to equipment. People have much more disposable income now than in years gone by, and marketers are succeeding to convince us to spend some of it on gear. Change is inevitable, so we might as well accept it. Not many people tracking deer in the snow any more, mostly sitting in some sort of permanent blind or treestand.

H&H, good luck with that M71. My dad used to have one, and when he let me shoot that boomer when I was 10 or 11 it opened the door into manhood for me. Unfortunately, when he got older he had trouble seeing the open sights and sold it so he could get a scoped rifle. In his mind, a man should own 2 guns, a deer rifle and a shotgun. How times have changed. I've checked into getting one several times, but could never justify the money that they command. Its a classic for sure.
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I’ve noticed that those iron sight are getting fuzzy-er with every year that passes. ;)
 
I agree with the OP.

I'm sure the trophy boar I missed this last Saturday with my Underwood 165gr Accubond would agree.

Nothing wrong with having fun picking out ammo and you want to make sure it works for your gun, but realistic shooting matters. I need to practice with non-ideal rests more often as you say.
 
"But my wonderloudenboomingshoulderthumping wonder magnum means I can shoot them in the tail and blow their head clean off. I can't miss with my 800 power scope, I can hit them from a mile away."

I have lost track of the number of times I have heard this from "deer hunters." My friend has an old 1961 Winchester model 70 as his "long distance deer getter", an old marlin 336 in 30-30, and a flintlock for primitive weapon season as his favorite trio for deer hunting depending on the season and what area he is hunting. He almost never fails to fill his tags every year. he is talking about shooting a recurve bow just to add a challenge this year.

I do agree buy a rifle, ammo and spend the time learning how to shoot. Learn both Benchrest to ensure zero and field positions so that you are ready when that once in a lifetime shot appears.
 
Over analyzing is a funny thing. i laughed at a friend who claimed the bullet failed on his buck that went about 20 yards. Problem: The bullet did not exit. If the buck had not gone down there would have been an imperfect blood trail.

Pride is a very powerful thing. For years i tracked wounded deer and elk for other hunters. You absolutely would not believe their excuses, often blaming the bullet. i told one guy, "don't blame the bullet, you did shoot the deer in the guts". Another hunter claimed the 160-170 B&C buck the dog located wasn't his because he did not shoot his deer in the guts.

With all the hype about expensive monolithic bullets that transform "marginal" shots into a bang flops, one wonders how hunters kill deer and elk with cup and core bullets. Some of us kill deer and hogs using .50 and .54 caliber muzzleloaders shooting patched round balls.

Most of my deer and hogs are shot at <70 from stands and blinds: About half are bang flops. i see little difference in the reaction of a large deer to being hit in the heart lung area with a 180 grain .30 caliber bullet at > 2,500 fps and one shot in the same area with a .530 caliber 230 grain round ball at 1,200 fps.
 
alsaqr said:
Over analyzing is a funny thing. i laughed at a friend who claimed the bullet failed on his buck that went about 20 yards. Problem: The bullet did not exit. If the buck had not gone down there would have been an imperfect blood trail.

Pride is a very powerful thing. For years i tracked wounded deer and elk for other hunters. You absolutely would not believe their excuses, often blaming the bullet. i told one guy, "don't blame the bullet, you did shoot the deer in the guts". Another hunter claimed the 160-170 B&C buck the dog located wasn't his because he did not shoot his deer in the guts.

With all the hype about expensive monolithic bullets that transform "marginal" shots into a bang flops, one wonders how hunters kill deer and elk with cup and core bullets. Some of us kill deer and hogs using .50 and .54 caliber muzzleloaders shooting patched round balls.

Most of my deer and hogs are shot at <70 from stands and blinds: About half are bang flops. i see little difference in the reaction of a large deer to being hit in the heart lung area with a 180 grain .30 caliber bullet at > 2,500 fps and one shot in the same area with a .530 caliber 230 grain round ball at 1,200 fps.
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The old my shot was “perfect” syndrome. Being a long time blood tracker and running Jagdterriers I’ve found more than one slightly injured critter that the shooter swore on his mother’s grave was a “perfect” shot. One of the better ones was a hog that the hunter shot “perfectly“. He saw the dust puff on the shoulder and everything. My dogs rounded him up several miles later with a bullet crease across the bridge of his snout. Bullet failure is a funny thing, and we often have to ask, “At what point in the animals death did the bullet fail?”. Now days a bullet that doesn’t retain 90+ % of its weight somehow failed. Marketing is a powerful thing.
 
H&Hhunter said:
The old my shot was “perfect” syndrome. Being a long time blood tracker and running Jagdterriers I’ve found more than one slightly injured critter that the shooter swore on his mother’s grave was a “perfect” shot.
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Then there's the craptastic tracker. (I'm not the best at all, but I do know a few basics) A fellow who knew I also hunted with black powder called me one day, saying he couldn't find the deer but ..., (you guessed it) he thought he had a perfect shot and now thinks he had a complete miss, but wanted to make sure it was a "miss" because he found no blood trail. He'd been looking for about two hours for the deer. So I went over to the woodlot at the farm where he was hunting and talked to him.

So although he "checked there", we went back to where he'd shot. He showed me where he was when he shot, and pointed out where the deer had been standing. I marked his spot with an extra blaze orange knit hat that I carry. I've always found that being able to look backwards at where the shot was made helps me figure out where the deer was actually standing. It was pretty level ground, and his "under 50 yards" shot had been more like 70 yards when I found the deer tracks and paced it off. We found the deer about ten yards from there. It left no blood trail as it really hadn't had time to fill it's lung cavity before it went down. :thumbup:

I've helped others in the past who were so intent on the ground they walked by, missing the blood sign on the bushes about 2 feet high, (from the deer coughing)..., and I know to look for that because I've done that myself, walking right past a bloody bush as I'm looking straight down and not stopping enough to look at the surrounding area... :oops:

LD
 
.455_Hunter said:
If Colorado elk hunter's spent as much time, effort and $$$ on personal fitness instead of ATVs, campers, and the newest gun/scope/short magnum, the success rate would increase greatly.
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True dat......

This time of the year I’m on two a days. I do either a fast 12 to 20 mile mountain bike ride or gym workout in the AM and at least a 2 to 5 mile hike in the PM. I try and do this 7 days a week. I’ve only ever hunted with one guy who could keep up if I’m in traveling mode. And that guy can not only keep up, he can smoke me. His hobby is running 14ers.

Last year was a bad year as I had to have a knee surgery in mid October. That’ll slow you down in the mountains for sure.
 
H&Hhunter said:
True dat......

This time of the year I’m on two a days. I do either a fast 12 to 20 mile mountain bike ride or gym workout in the AM and at least a 2 to 5 mile hike in the PM. I try and do this 7 days a week. I’ve only ever hunted with one guy who could keep up if I’m in traveling mode. And that guy can not only keep up, he can smoke me. His hobby is running 14ers.

Last year was a bad year as I had to have a knee surgery in mid October. That’ll slow you down in the mountains for sure.
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Didn't slow you down that much...
 
Laphroaig said:
Not many people tracking deer in the snow any more, mostly sitting in some sort of permanent blind or treestand.
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This is certainly my experience.
Morning and evening hunts are from permanent box stands, over bait usually. I even have sandbags in the windows, so shooting from a bench does translate for my style of hunting.

The only time I do anything differently, is sometimes if deer movement is slow, I'll jump in on an afternoon drive with dogs. Then it's shotgun time.
 
At least at my local rifle ranges, seeing someone shoot a rifle from a field position is rare enough to attract attention. I once overheard muttering that the fellow shooting from sitting was probably breaking some sort of rule. It's to the point that if I see someone not shooting from the bench, I assume he is either an expert or a loon.
 
Loyalist Dave said:
So although he "checked there", we went back to where he'd shot. He showed me where he was when he shot, and pointed out where the deer had been standing. I marked his spot with an extra blaze orange knit hat that I carry. I've always found that being able to look backwards at where the shot was made helps me figure out where the deer was actually standing. It was pretty level ground, and his "under 50 yards" shot had been more like 70 yards when I found the deer tracks and paced it off. We found the deer about ten yards from there. It left no blood trail as it really hadn't had time to fill it's lung cavity before it went down. :thumbup:
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Reminds of of a time a few years back when I was hunting in a climber over the edge of a long narrow swamp(we actually called it ''The long narrow swamp") on a big parcel of state land. About a hour after daylight I see another hunter waddling along the opposite edge about 200 yards away. He starts looking around and it's obvious he's looking for a place to stand(here in Wisconsin everyone stands with their back to a tree) even tho I know he's seen me in the tree. Finally he finds a good tree and stands with his back to it....and me. Coupla hours went by and a series of gunshots rang off just to the west of us. Few minutes later two does ran across the swamp about 80 yards or so from the guy and stopped just as they entered the edge of the woods on the other side. I saw the guy pull up and shoot and one went down immediately. He walks about halfway to where the deer lay dead, walks around in a circle for a while and then walks back to his tree. Not wanting to mess him or me up on opening day, I waited til noon and went down and walked over to him. I was a tad leery he might not have an antlerless tag and if he didn't, was gonna get his backtag #. When I asked him about the deer, he shrugged his shoulders and said he was a little embarrassed because he didn't know how he could have missed it. I told him "you didn't, she dropped right where you shot her". On the way over to her he got to about where he had stopped before and started to look around again. I said "she's over there on the edge by the woods". He said "No, she wasn't that far!". I told him I watched the whole thing and said there was no mistake. We walked another 50 yards and there she lay. He looked back to where he had shot from and said he never would have thought she was that far away. I then asked him what power his scope was on. He said "9".
 
.38 Special said:
At least at my local rifle ranges, seeing someone shoot a rifle from a field position is rare enough to attract attention. I once overheard muttering that the fellow shooting from sitting was probably breaking some sort of rule. It's to the point that if I see someone not shooting from the bench, I assume he is either an expert or a loon.
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I know the feeling.

Back when I competed in black powder cartridge silhouette I belonged to a very nice club with a 300 yd range. I also had a .22LR built to replicate my silhouette rifle. I made paper TGTs, chickens, pigs, turkeys and rams to scale for either 100yds (.22) or 300yds for the center-fires. When I went to the range I'd practice each animal either prone off sticks (P-T-Rs) or standing (C) as if it was a match, complete with a timer.

I used to get the strangest looks from guys. They'd show up and basically shoot off the bench the entire time, multiple rifles even. Probably some of the most boring shooting I've ever seen. I must have some sort of AADD going on cause other than load development and sighting in, I can't stand shooting off a bench. Now I have my own range out to 760yds and I'm still practicing from the positions I expect to take "the" shot from.
 
I'm guilty of over-analyzing

I spend way too much time working up hunting loads for optimum accuracy than is necessary for hunting.

Before I started reloading a 20 round box of hunting ammo would last me years. I was your typical preseason "3 in a paper plate" and call it good hunter.

Even though my shooting skills have improved exponentially since those days and I spend A LOT more money on my equipment, I'm not a better hunter for it. It's all over kill and excess, but I do it because I enjoy it. It's become part of the hobby for me.
 
Nature Boy said:
I'm guilty of over-analyzing

I spend way too much time working up hunting loads for optimum accuracy than is necessary for hunting.

Before I started reloading a 20 round box of hunting ammo would last me years. I was your typical preseason "3 in a paper plate" and call it good hunter.

Even though my shooting skills have improved exponentially since those days and I spend A LOT more money on my equipment, I'm not a better hunter for it. It's all over kill and excess, but I do it because I enjoy it. It's become part of the hobby for me.
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I would argue that for YOU, you do in fact make use of each increment more than the hunter that the op was targeting, I've gone back and forth on this and I've decided that on the original topic I can't say much one way or another because I like good used 1 season guns cheap. However even my kids shoot more/better than everyone I know and in this aspect I absolutely overanalyze, I want their gear to fit them and their purposes so well that my childhood hunts look comparable to a cave man in comparison lol. Light recoiling, high velocity, well balanced, properly fitted rifles that make the most of bc and are loaded accordingly has made their experience much more positive than mine lol (first hunt I picked a long heavy octagon barreled win .30-30 over a 22" win70 .243 and don't regret it one bit, have always practiced and been a good shot but man if I had had the guns/loads I've built for my kids!!!) I think as long as one knows how to fully make use of every bit of their system then they haven't over analyzed as much as they have made a targeted, educated, tool design.
 
I agree with the OP in general terms. There are certain limited scopes of hunting where minutia become consequential...i.e. extreme range shooting of game. Its a topic for another debate which I care not to join, but in pushing a big game caliber/rifle to the absolute limit, every fraction of an MOA can make a difference.

Back to the general topic of shooting a deer, elk, moose, bear to 300 yards or so with a modern centerfire in the .243-30-06 ballpark with say a 3x9 quality optic. If you can shoot 2 MOA from a supported field position, and know how to roughly judge conditions such as wind and shot angle, or opt to pass shots involving such conditions, you're there. I personally don't waste a lot of time and components with load development once I crack the 2 MOA mark. I do shoot a relatively "flat" cartridge and bullet to hedge my bets on conditions at the limits of range. I also try to set up longer shooting scenarios with a field expedient rest, and practice accordingly.

Back before the internet knew better, I used to dump whitetails with a .308 bone stock R788 with a Swift 2x7 and Hornady 150 flat based spire points to 300 yards (my self imposed limit on healthy deer). 2 known wounded animals I took at 420 and 450 yards across prairie grass in Central WI over homemade shooting sticks of survey stakes and a bent nail. I rarely took the scope off 4x. Military ammo which shot near the POI of hunting loads was dirt cheap, and I had access to lots of open fields of public land with dirt piles on the far end. I did a lot of shooting from field positions in various conditions with that rifle, and knew it like an old lover. I also shot a lot of running/trotting deer with that rifle to 100 yards on drives, and a lot of snap shots in the woods, logging roads, or clearcuts from point blank to 200 yards. With a lot of practice, I was confident offhand to that distance, more so sitting or braced on a sapling if that was an option. Don't think my eyes, muscles, and overall skills are up to that anymore, so now my offhand range is shorter even with a superior rifle/scope/cartridge. Know your rifle, get it solid, and shoot deer.
 
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