Tomekeuro85
Member
I have a Savage 10fp-Le2 in .308 that I would say averages a little over .9 MOA. What are some ways aside from reloading that increase accuracy?
Increasing Rifle accuracy
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USSR
Member
Aside from reloading, bedding the receiver into the stock will help.
Don
Don
dracphelan
Member
Tomekeuro85 said:
Let's see:
1. Bedding the stock
2. If it has an accutrigger, adjusting the trigger.
3. What kind of scope/sights do you have? If it is a scope, is it a good quality scope with good rings.
ocabj
Member
Assuming match quality ammo:
1. Properly torquing the action and receiver screws.
2. Ensuring proper free floating barrel.
3. True and time action.
4. Bedding the action.
5. Match recoil lug.
6. New barrel.
1. Properly torquing the action and receiver screws.
2. Ensuring proper free floating barrel.
3. True and time action.
4. Bedding the action.
5. Match recoil lug.
6. New barrel.
Tomekeuro85
Member
How much could one expect all that stuff to cost. All I'm really looking for is approximately .5 average MOA with handloads and no worse than .75 with match ammo.
ocabj
Member
Tomekeuro85 said:
The Sharp Shooter Supply site doesn't load for me right now, but iirc, truing and timing the action runs for under $100 (long wait time due to back log, though).
Sharp Shooter Supply sells a stainless steel match recoil lug for about $20 or so.
A good, new barrel will cost at least $250. Tactical Dynamics sells pre-threaded, pre-chambered, drop in Lothar Walther barrels for around $250.
Bedding the action can be done at home, but you'll probably want to have a smith do it for you if you are a novice and want to do it right. Couldn't tell you how much this runs for.
Well, the best question is what ammo are you using? If that is some generic 308 ammo well that is pretty good. The benchmark is Fed GMM. BHA is a good choice, too. And, when all else fails try the other match offerings, ie Rem and Win offer a match 308 load. Are you capabable of shooting smaller groups? It is an honest question, in that some times a person has to develop bench technique!
I hope you have been saving your brass?
Next I would make sure everything is installed right and tight! Scope mount, scope rings, scope, and action screws. Bedding makes sense, too!
But, I just think the 308 begs to be reloaded!
I hope you have been saving your brass?
Next I would make sure everything is installed right and tight! Scope mount, scope rings, scope, and action screws. Bedding makes sense, too!
But, I just think the 308 begs to be reloaded!
Tomekeuro85
Member
P0832177 said:
I am using Federal Gold Medal Match, 168 and 175 grain. The .90 is an overestimate just to be safe. I have gotten a group that was .20, but that was only one time. I am an experienced shooter in terms of steadiness and such so human error is not a problem for me. I used to shoot my pellet gun a lot when I was younger, and that taught me steadiness, etc. I have been saving my brass, I've shot about 100 rounds through the Savage so far and I am planning to start reloading within a month or two (I'll most likely get the RCBS RockChucker Kit from Midway). If any of you remember, I posted a thread a while back asking about why my Savage was getting 3 inch groups with match ammo. The reason was because the scope was loose. I fixed it and my groups went to MOA or less. My only problem is that I haven't shot this rifle as much as I would like. At $27 a box, FGMM is not cheap, so I've only had a chance to shoot about 3 boxes of match ammo so far. Out of these, I've only shot about 5-6 groups that I've actually measured the rest were estimates. Whats worse is that when I'm not shooting match ammo, I use American Eagle 150gr, which are way up above the zero of the 168gr and much less accurate. I also have a .223 Remington 700, which I love. I use PMC 52gr HPBT and get consistent .70-.75" groups at 100. That's my other rifle I want to accurize.
Sorry for posting my life story haha. I appreciate all your answers and if anyone has anything to add, please do.
ocabj
Member
While FedGMM is good stuff in most guns, you should probably give Black Hills match ammo a whirl. It's cheaper and most people have found that it is just as good as FedGMM if not better. You'll find it in the red box, not the blue box (remanufactured), although the blue box stuff is actually really good stuff if you shoot .223.
Tomekeuro85
Member
ocabj said:
The problem is this... I live in Illinois. The gun store I go to is the biggest gun store that I know of within 3 hours of where I live, and as far as I am aware, the biggest gun store in Illinois. It is called Mega Sports, but they only carry gun/hunting stuff, no other sporting equipment. They have tons and tons of guns and ammo, but they frequently run out of the ammo I usually buy for my .223 (PMC 52gr and American Eagle 55gr), and I have never seen them carry Black Hills in my caliber. I WOULD order ammo from Midway, but I live in Cook County, IL, which means no ammo shipments to me. Fortunately for me, I have roommates from all over the place, and 2 of them have lots and lots of land to shoot on and lots of friends who have the same. I will most likely order some ammo and have it shipped to their houses. My plan is to do some varmint shooting over my christmas break. (coyote, crow, squirrel, rabbit, racoon, etc). My main purpose for my 2 rifles is target shooting and varmint shooting as I have just described. Thanks again for all your replies
Tomekeuro85
Member
ocabj said:
Also, how much tighter may I expect all this to make my group average with the new barrel, and also without the new barrel. What I'm asking is it even worth the money or should I just count on handloading to improve my accuracy?
ocabj
Member
Tomekeuro85 said:
There's no way for me to quantify how tight your groups are going to get through certain modifications. Handloading is always something you should look into, so you may want to try that before you decide to go with new parts and gunsmithing work.
From a personal standpoint, my Savage 10FP with a 26" factory barrel chambered in .308 and sitting in a McMillan A-5 (not bedded) shoots around 3/4 MOA with FedGMM 175 grain. My handloads tighten it up to about 1/2 MOA.
In my opinion, try the Black Hills match ammo and if that doesn't seem to work for you, start playing with handloads. If you plan on shooting to about 600 yards max, stick with 168 grain bullets. If you want an all purpose load that will get you to 1000 yards, go with the 175s. If you go with the 175s, you'll probably want to find a load where the muzzle velocity is somewhere around 2650fps in a 24" barrel or 2750 in a 26" barrel. Obviously you want the most accurate load, but you also want something that will stay supersonic up to 1000 yards. If you just want something that gets you good groups at 100 yards, don't even worry about velocity. Just find the charge in the pressure curve that gets you the best group. I remember when I was playing around with the 168s in my Savage and I loaded around 42 grains of Varget when 46 is max and the group was literally holding under a quarter MOA. I'm sure the velocity was fairly mild and was not good for longer range use (I didn't chrono it though), but it was an insane load for just shooting groups at 100 yards.
But if you are really concerned about getting the best groups possible, replacing the factory barrel is the first thing you should do. Under 1MOA accuracy is very good for a factory barrel. But if you want consistently tight groups at or below 1/2 MOA, you'll need to look into match quality grade barrels by such manfacturers as Krieger, Schneider, Mike Rock, Pac-Nor, and Lothar Walther. Pac-Nor and Lothar Walther are the two barrel makers that I know of that make ready to install barrels for Savage actions. All you gotta do is remove your barrel, screw on the new one, headspace, and tighten the barrel nut. For other makers like Krieger, Schneider, or Rock, you'll have to find someone who will chamber and thread it for the Savage action.
I wouldn't be able to tell you if you need to get your action trued and timed. IIRC, Sharp Shooter Supply stated that many Savages don't need any improvements on the bolt timing. Truing definitely won't hurt.
The match recoil lug is probably a good idea, especially if you decide to rebarrel. The factory Savage recoil lugs are typically not cut well and do not mate cleanly with the action. The one sold by Sharp Shooter Supply is thicker and slightly wider on the taper, and is machined to tight tolerances and should eliminate any inconsistency in the recoil lug to stock fit.
USSR
Member
Tomekeuro85,
I'd reload for that rifle before I did any modifications to it. I'd be surprised if your rifle didn't respond to good reloads with .5MOA groups.
Don
I'd reload for that rifle before I did any modifications to it. I'd be surprised if your rifle didn't respond to good reloads with .5MOA groups.
Don
IMHO
the first thing I'd do is glass-bed it with floated barrel. If I can do it at home, so can you. Brownells Acra-Glas comes with great instructions.
Once bedded, handload. But get two special tools: one to measure seating depth to touch the rifling, so you can seat bullets a specified distance short of touching. The other to permit cartidge length measuring *from the ogive* and not the tip of the bullet. When handloading, try neck sizing. Also prep your brass: uniform primer pockets, ream flash holes, and maybe sort by weight and neck turn.
With these steps, for my first attempt at accurizing and handloading, I took a 1903A3 on a sporter stock *with original 1943 2-groove GI barrel* from a 2 1/2 MOA rifle to a 1/2 to 3/4 MOA rifle, the variation depending completely on my shooting.
It's a fun project, a labor of love really, and within the skills and means of those of us who are not engineers/machinists.
the first thing I'd do is glass-bed it with floated barrel. If I can do it at home, so can you. Brownells Acra-Glas comes with great instructions.
Once bedded, handload. But get two special tools: one to measure seating depth to touch the rifling, so you can seat bullets a specified distance short of touching. The other to permit cartidge length measuring *from the ogive* and not the tip of the bullet. When handloading, try neck sizing. Also prep your brass: uniform primer pockets, ream flash holes, and maybe sort by weight and neck turn.
With these steps, for my first attempt at accurizing and handloading, I took a 1903A3 on a sporter stock *with original 1943 2-groove GI barrel* from a 2 1/2 MOA rifle to a 1/2 to 3/4 MOA rifle, the variation depending completely on my shooting.
It's a fun project, a labor of love really, and within the skills and means of those of us who are not engineers/machinists.
Dude, 
Start reloading for that rifle and shoot that barrel until it's toast. Then get a premium barrel for it. Getting ammo in IL isn't going to get easier. If you are only reloading for a 308 and/or 223, you can get a nice setup with out spending Boo Koo (I don't speak or spell french) bucks.
Get the recoil lug from SSS and glass bed that rifle. Enjoy it and shoot it.
Start reloading for that rifle and shoot that barrel until it's toast. Then get a premium barrel for it. Getting ammo in IL isn't going to get easier. If you are only reloading for a 308 and/or 223, you can get a nice setup with out spending Boo Koo (I don't speak or spell french) bucks.
Get the recoil lug from SSS and glass bed that rifle. Enjoy it and shoot it.
bogie
Member
Here's that I'd do...
Lee Anniversary Kit with the Lee "Deluxe" die set. Use the collet die for sizing.
Use Lapua brass and Walt Berger's 175 grain match hollowpoints.
IMR 4895 and Federal match primers.
Do a search on this forum for "bullet jam" and follow my advice to find a place to start your cartridge overall length.
Start at 39 grains, and work up looking for pressure signs.
Use wind indicators.
Adjust the trigger, while maintaining safety. Replace if necessary. I own Canjar (slow, but light) and one I can't remember, and darn it, I like the second better... Argh... I know I'll remember about 3:00 ayem...
"Truing" the boltface isn't going to do much for a Savage. The floating boltface is a great design in and of itself, and self-trues. Leave it alone.
Glass bed from the rear screw up through the front. Leave the sides and front of the recoil lug unbedded.
After you wear out the barrel, get a pac-nor, or a match-grade barrel, and have it chambered.
Lee Anniversary Kit with the Lee "Deluxe" die set. Use the collet die for sizing.
Use Lapua brass and Walt Berger's 175 grain match hollowpoints.
IMR 4895 and Federal match primers.
Do a search on this forum for "bullet jam" and follow my advice to find a place to start your cartridge overall length.
Start at 39 grains, and work up looking for pressure signs.
Use wind indicators.
Adjust the trigger, while maintaining safety. Replace if necessary. I own Canjar (slow, but light) and one I can't remember, and darn it, I like the second better... Argh... I know I'll remember about 3:00 ayem...
"Truing" the boltface isn't going to do much for a Savage. The floating boltface is a great design in and of itself, and self-trues. Leave it alone.
Glass bed from the rear screw up through the front. Leave the sides and front of the recoil lug unbedded.
After you wear out the barrel, get a pac-nor, or a match-grade barrel, and have it chambered.
1911 guy
Member
Reload!
I know you said you'd like to avoid reloading, but that is the one thing that will give you the most return for your money and improvement in accuracy. Here are some tips you can easily apply to get the most from it.
1) Use a powder that uses the most available case capacity. I use Varget, others work as well.
2) Use different bullet weights to see which your rifle likes best. My Savage .308 likes 150 grain bullets, yours may like heavier, so experiment.
3) when you find the right bullet, experiment with charges within the limits of powder/bullet weight data.
4) When you get that as good as you can, experiment with seating depth.
Now I'll give you my cheap way to measure depth to lands. Resize a case, then start a bullet into the neck. Leave it WAY too long and chamber it. Eject and measure. The bullet will seat to the lands and tell you where to start seating. Most rifles will like something in the range of .010" to .020" off the lands.
***This length is only good for the bullet you check as different bullets have different profiles, therefore different lengths to the ogive.***
I know you said you'd like to avoid reloading, but that is the one thing that will give you the most return for your money and improvement in accuracy. Here are some tips you can easily apply to get the most from it.
1) Use a powder that uses the most available case capacity. I use Varget, others work as well.
2) Use different bullet weights to see which your rifle likes best. My Savage .308 likes 150 grain bullets, yours may like heavier, so experiment.
3) when you find the right bullet, experiment with charges within the limits of powder/bullet weight data.
4) When you get that as good as you can, experiment with seating depth.
Now I'll give you my cheap way to measure depth to lands. Resize a case, then start a bullet into the neck. Leave it WAY too long and chamber it. Eject and measure. The bullet will seat to the lands and tell you where to start seating. Most rifles will like something in the range of .010" to .020" off the lands.
***This length is only good for the bullet you check as different bullets have different profiles, therefore different lengths to the ogive.***
Tomekeuro85
Member
I didn't mean that I didn't want to reload. I have been planning to reload for quite some time and I will be buying reloading equip. pretty soon. I'm thinking of the RCBS rockchuker. I just meant that I want the most accurate rifle possible before I start reloading. Thanks for all the replies though.
ocabj
Member
Red Tornado
Member
I got to go to a Gander Mountain out in Geneva, IL over Thanksgiving. They stocked Black Hills, and that may be closer to you. It's about an hour West of downtown. I think it's the last suburb before the country begins.
\rant on\
I was going to buy some, but I'm from Missouri, and the fascists have dictated that I can not buy ammo in their state. And it's a border state. Arkansas lets me buy long guns and ammo! See, it's a border state...and a free state. I wish the inlaws lived in Texas instead.
\rant off\
Sorry for the brief hijack.
RT
\rant on\
I was going to buy some, but I'm from Missouri, and the fascists have dictated that I can not buy ammo in their state. And it's a border state.
Arkansas lets me buy long guns and ammo! See, it's a border state...and a free state. I wish the inlaws lived in Texas instead. \rant off\
Sorry for the brief hijack.
RT
bogie
Member
Tomekeuro85 said:
Handloading is a great part of precision accuracy. You _might_ get lucky after trying a dozen different boxes of factory rounds, and find one that shoots well, or you can take the same $$, add a few extra bucks, buy a starter handloading set, along with enough brass, bullets, powder and primers to wear out your barrel, and get things perfect.
Tomekeuro85
Member
ocabj said:
Its a Cook County issue. I guess ammo shipments are not allowed to Cook County. Ive seen that on Midway, CheaperthanDirt.com, and a few other places. Something like... "cannot ship ammo to Washington D.C., Xstate, Xstate, Xstate, and Cook County, IL."
I will get the black hills and have it shipped to my friend's house in Wisconsin because thats where we are going anyways.
Lee sux.
Like Bogie et al said, bed, free-float, torque the action screws properly, and ditch the accu-trigger for something better. Quality ammo from Black Hills, Federal, and so forth. Then reload. Lee sux, but it'll get you into reloading, and you'll end up buying better reloading tools eventually.
Matter of fact, I have a Lee hand press I'll let go for really cheap right now. Christmas being around the corner and all...
Like Bogie et al said, bed, free-float, torque the action screws properly, and ditch the accu-trigger for something better. Quality ammo from Black Hills, Federal, and so forth. Then reload. Lee sux, but it'll get you into reloading, and you'll end up buying better reloading tools eventually.
Matter of fact, I have a Lee hand press I'll let go for really cheap right now. Christmas being around the corner and all...
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