Ineffective .30 Carbines in Korea?

[Ryanxia]

I served from 1973 to 1996 in the US Army and Colorado National Guard. Served with and talked to WW11 vets, Korean and Vietnam etc. Lots of conflicting stories on various weapons. I'd be more concerned if there were lots of living recipients of various bullets talking trash about each round.

Well said.

When I was a kid I used to think the M1 Garand was so cool (probably from movies), my grandfather said he had one in WW2, said it was too heavy, he ended up being able to get a Thompson in exchange (not sure the weight difference if it was actually different but at least smaller). The first time I held an M1 Garand I thought, this would suck carrying this around for weeks/months.

 

[Art Eatman]

I was on occupation duty in South Korea in '54/'55. Ack-ack outfit; 50th AAA. We were issued M2 Carbines. A few times, I "liberated" a 600-round box of ammo from the arms shack and went to the beach at Inchon. Full-auto + seagulls = fun afternoon.

As far as effectiveness, a hit from an M1 Carbine is better than a miss from a 1911--and, generally, the M1 Carbine was a cook/truck-driver's replacement weapon.

 

[Picher]

Not being in combat with either an M1 Carbine or a Garand, I can't argue the merits of either, though would grab the Garand if distance or cover were the primary concerns.

I do have hundreds of rounds experience with the M1 Carbine, shooting one in gravel pits to about 150 yards and carrying it in the woods. Once, when I was about 14 and hunting with my older brother, a grouse surprised me by flushing about 10 feet in front and the Carbine came up like lightning. I instinctively aimed at the grouse and fired before the bird got 20 feet away. It actually "blew up" and there wasn't enough meat left to bring it home. The push-button safety was key in the speed. The turning safety might have been too slow.

I doubt that I could have done it with a heavier Garand, or some of the later assault rifles that don't point well. We'll never know. My much-older brother, who was walking behind me, seemed quite impressed at the shot. It was his rifle.

 

[Zeke/PA]

My Dad along with several relatives who were WWII vets had little regard for the M1 Carbine and really trashed it's use after hearing of some Korean happenings where our GI's using the same were involved.

 

[Nom de Forum]

...... generally, the M1 Carbine was a cook/truck-driver's replacement weapon.

I agree, but what about stories of Audie Murphy's preference for the M1 Carbine? This is a guy who obviously killed many German soldiers with various weapons. You would think a guy like Murphy with extensive combat experience would not want to use a shoulder arm that is even marginal let alone, as some claim, ineffective. I have a hard time believing he preferred the M1 Carbine solely because he was a small statured man and the Garand was to big. Does anyone have detailed information on Murphy's preference for and actual use of the M1 Carbine?

 

[lemaymiami]

Can't comment on historical users - but do have some real world, on the street where it counts opinions.. I mostly prefer a standard shotgun in riot configuration - but would just love to have a new or old carbine as a defensive weapon for a vehicle... I'd set it up with soft point ammo and absolutely count on it for close quarters work out to 50 meters against more than one opponent at a time... There's a lot to be said for a lightweight, quick handling, instinctive pointing shooter when a few seconds are a lifetime. No, a GI carbine isn't a battle rifle - and out in the countryside I'd want something with more range and power, but in the city or suburbs where 100 meters is a long distance I'd expect it to perform as needed.

I almost bought one of the current reproduction carbines by Auto Ordnance (kahr) but was put off by reliability issues. Yes, the little carbine no longer is cheap to feed (unless you roll your own) but it still has a place in my world...

 

[rcmodel]

+1

I have known a few old County Mounties, and KHP Troopers who carried DCM carbines in the trunks of their cars. And a few of them were Korean war vets.

They all felt the M-1 carbine was about ideal for dispatching road injured animals, up to the size of cows & horses that had to be dispatched.
Also, a fighting gun if it came to that.

Never heard any of them who felt they needed a bigger gun for that use, or they would have carried one.

rc

 

[leadcounsel]

Quote:

The .30 carbine is no less effective than a pistol round, and probably more effective, to which we can all agree, and we all know that pistol rounds aren't deterred by frozen winter jackets

The preceding statement indicates that you in fact know very little. Pistols suck at stopping human attackers that are shooting at you. The problem with you and a lot of internet experts is your lack of real world experience. Try hunting big game with your 30 carbine and various pistols. Then imagine that that animal is armed and trying to kill you. Considerr a 30 carbine in cold winter weather (velocity reduced just from temperature), someone shooting at 100 yds, heavy clothing wet and frozen on the outer layers, bullet hits a metal object carried by the soldier, soldier body is at an angle to the path of the bullet, etc, etc. The low velocity of the round will not cause much tissue damage when it does penetrate.

My quoted phrase is completely out of context above...

When will "High Roaders" stop purposefully taking entire replies, parsing a sentence or two totally out of context, and the using personal attacks to make their points...?

On topic, I'll make two further points:

1. Comparing a large pistol or small rifle class caliber - designed for support self defense - against a large caliber front line fighting cartridge and large game hunting cartridge (.30-06) and the Garand or BAR is asinine. Of COURSE the '06 is going to be more effective and have greater range, and "win" the contest between the two in stopping and takedown power. Why the comparison?

2. Anyone want to take the "frozen winter coat" challenge, go stand 100 yards down range and take a few shots from the M1 Carbine and see how "ineffective" it is? Clearly there are multiple reasons that it "appeared" ineffective, as articulated throughout this thread - misses, distance, perception, poor shot placement, unfair head-to-head comparison versus the Garand, very motivated and/or drugged enemy Soldiers (who could not retreat because of the consequences, who may have sought capture and hospitality, etc.), and on and on... I seriously question anyone - veteran or otherwise - who honestly thinks that a intermediate weight/caliber bullet (.30 caliber or even 5.56) who thinks that it's "ineffective" at killing... because there are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of piled bodies globally that say otherwise... and I've seen a handful of them (5.56 related).

 

[Pilgram]

Dad's Experience in Korea

My Dad is a Korean War vet.

He said that he was issued an M1 Garand, and the rule was that you had to carry 120 rounds. That proved to be too heavy, so he traded it for an M1 carbine.

He described the first firefight as an engagement with the Chinese who came in waves from more than a mile away. He said the M1 Garands could not reach them, so they shot at them with 50 cal machine guns. He said that they went through 3 barrels.

He traded his M1 carbine for a BAR because he said he wanted something that could reach out a long ways. He was a Sergeant, so had a jeep and driver. He tossed the BAR in the back.

When he left Korea, he traded the BAR for an M1 Garand to replace the one he had been issued. The guy who he traded it to said "Harry, did you ever shoot this gun? It's rusted shut."

The stories about the 30 carbine in Korea may be vets who were trying to use them as long range weapons, and just missing. Certainly, my Dad's combat experience was shooting beyond the effective range of even an M1 Garand,

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I agree, but what about stories of Audie Murphy's preference for the M1 Carbine? This is a guy who obviously killed many German soldiers with various weapons. You would think a guy like Murphy with extensive combat experience would not want to use a shoulder arm that is even marginal let alone, as some claim, ineffective. I have a hard time believing he preferred the M1 Carbine solely because he was a small statured man and the Garand was to big.

In his book, To Hell and Back, Murphy doesn't say why he liked the carbine. But Murphy used many weapons in combat, including the Garand, grenades, a Thompson, and a Browning .50 Cal (which is what he was using when he won the Medal of Honor.)

He started using the carbine after he was commissioned -- it was standard issue to platoon leaders then.

 

[Art Eatman]

My understanding is that Audie Murphy, from a young age, did a good bit of hunting for food for the family. Odds are, his skill level was way above run-of-the-mill--both in stalking and shooting.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

My understanding is that Audie Murphy, from a young age, did a good bit of hunting for food for the family. Odds are, his skill level was way above run-of-the-mill--both in stalking and shooting.

Indeed he was -- in his book he discusses shooting Germans through the head, and doing it as a matter of routine.

 

[PokeyOkie]

I don't have combat experience with a carbine but hunted deer for many years in eastern Oklahoma with a WWII vet who used his exclusively. I tried a carbine once didn't find it very effective at dropping deer like my 30-06 or my brother's 303 but it did the job. Even with proper shot placement, I had to track that deer farther than normal. I very much preferred my -06 for effectiveness even though it was a pain to lug around. For close in, I wouldn't feel under armed with one.

 

[JShirley]

My first AR15 was a Colt AR15A2 that I was convinced into believing I "had" to have, by a friend and firearms trainer in the late 90s.

I thought it was much too large and heavy for what it was. I finally sold it to my friend and bought what I kept thinking I should have gotten instead- a new M1 Carbine.

Now, that was some years ago, and I have since fired thousands of rounds from M4 carbines, so that's my first choice now for close range defensive work. But the M1 Carbine works just fine at close range. Tailor your load to your target, though. As I've mentioned elsewhere, JSP from a M1 Carbine is incredibly penetrative. JHP would be a better defensive choice.

John

 

[DammitBoy]

My Dad served in the Corps during WWII - island hopping, including Guadalcanal. He said nobody wanted the M1 carbine. Said they called it the jamb-o-matic.

 

[rcmodel]

I can't imagine any service man who used one calling them jamb-o-matics?

Of all the things they have been accused of, jamming or failures to feed wasn't one of them.
Unless you got hold of a real bad magazine.

My WWII IBM has never jammed once in the 52 years I have owned it!

It's probably one of the more reliable semi-auto's i have ever owned.

rc

 

[HOWARD J]

My grandmother wrapped my Red Ryder BB gun around a tree & it followed the contour of the tree better than any M1 carbine ever would.
I always liked my M1 carbine & it sits against the wall beside my bed loaded with SN bullets in case any savages make it into the house

 

[Float Pilot]

My Winchester made carbine is fairly accurate. About 2 to 2.5 inch groups at 100 yards from sandbags using issue ammo. And it has never jammed, with military FMJ ammo. With 110 grain soft points it does not do so swell. Out to 100 yards it is better than a pistol.

 

[amd6547]

Audie Murphy is said to have liked his personal M1 carbine so much that when the stock broke, he fixed it himself with a wire wrap, rather than replace it.

 

[DammitBoy]

I can't imagine any service man who used one calling them jamb-o-matics?

rc

I have no idea, maybe it was a combination of mud, rain, and salt water?

 

[JR47]

In the past couple of weeks there have been threads about the M1 Carbine failing to penetrate heavy clothing, and the .45 ACP failing to penetrate heavy clothing. NONE of them present anything but anecdotal evidence to support their claims.

The M1 Carbine hasn't been issued for over forty years. What difference does myth and legend make?

The .45 ACP. like 9x19 had been the object of billions of dollars of R&D, and today performs to a level not thought possible in WWII or Korea.

What, exactly, is the purpose of all this band-width?

Oh, and for the man who felt that the Thompson M1 was "lighter " than an M1 Garand. An M1 Garand weighed in at 9 pounds 8 ounces, empty.

The M1 Thompson weighed in at a featherlight 11.0 pounds, also empty.

The Garand was 9.6" longer, at 43.3" than the M1 Thompson, at 33.7".

For the comment about millions of bodies killed by the 5.56, please be advised that millions of bodies are left annually by the lowly .22 long rifle, as well.

If that were actually a criterion, we'd all be carrying Ruger synthetic stocked 10/22 rifles with factory high cap magazines. Think of the weight savings, lower cost, and ability to carry ever more ammunition.

 

[45_auto]

please be advised that millions of bodies are left annually by the lowly .22 long rifle

Where did you get your info?

About 60 million people on earth die each year.

If 2 million (minimum number per "millions" in your quote) are killed by .22 long rifle, that means that over 3% of all deaths in the world are caused by being shot with a .22.

The US only has about 2.5 million deaths TOTAL (30,000 or so from firearms) from all causes every year, where in the world are all these deaths from .22 located?

They must have plenty of .22 ammo available where ever it is, maybe we can get some sent over here!

 

[rondog]

FWIW, this is what my house and truck Carbines are kept loaded with, along with soft nosed Remingtons.

 

[rondog]

Second photo (doing this on my phone is a PITA). Look like bodacious little thug-busters to me. Supposed to be good deer rounds too.

I bought a box of the bullets directly from Barnes, but ya gotta beg for 'em, they're not a stock item. When they make some for Cor-Bon, they do some intentional over-runs to satisfy the demand from beggars like me.

I think their stock # is 30800, but I can't swear to that without going to the basement and digging out the box. Pretty sure that's it though. They ain't cheap.

 

[Nom de Forum]

In the past couple of weeks there have been threads about the M1 Carbine failing to penetrate heavy clothing, and the .45 ACP failing to penetrate heavy clothing. NONE of them present anything but anecdotal evidence to support their claims.

The M1 Carbine hasn't been issued for over forty years. What difference does myth and legend make?

The .45 ACP. like 9x19 had been the object of billions of dollars of R&D, and today performs to a level not thought possible in WWII or Korea.

What, exactly, is the purpose of all this band-width?

Oh, and for the man who felt that the Thompson M1 was "lighter " than an M1 Garand. An M1 Garand weighed in at 9 pounds 8 ounces, empty.

The M1 Thompson weighed in at a featherlight 11.0 pounds, also empty.

The Garand was 9.6" longer, at 43.3" than the M1 Thompson, at 33.7".

For the comment about millions of bodies killed by the 5.56, please be advised that millions of bodies are left annually by the lowly .22 long rifle, as well.

If that were actually a criterion, we'd all be carrying Ruger synthetic stocked 10/22 rifles with factory high cap magazines. Think of the weight savings, lower cost, and ability to carry ever more ammunition.

Feeling a little annoyed this morning are we?

Regarding your statement "The .45 ACP. like 9x19 had been the object of billions of dollars of R&D, and today performs to a level not thought possible in WWII or Korea" they actually did expect them to perform at the levels we believe possible today because they did not know any better. Every read that 1970's classic "Cooper on Handguns"? In that know out of dated and discredited source on the effectiveness of handgun cartridges the .45ACP was promoted as being nearly 100% effective with one shot. Of course during the same time period the proponents of the 9mm thought their favorite was just as effective as the .45ACP.

Millions of bodies left annually by the lowly .22 Long Rifle? I don't see them lying around, where are they?