Inexpensive Reliable .45-70 Breech Loader?

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The 45 70 is really a 200 yard rifle until you figure out the arc. If you have a repeatable load you can really shoot at some distance but it takes some practice.

Most of the Marlins will shoot moa at 100 yards. And the good thing about a 45 70 is that you do not lose much with a short barrel versus a longer barrel, except of course weight to soak up the recoil. That guide gun is a great very handy rifle.

I have some 1200 FPS 300 grain rounds that are plain fun plinkers. You can shoot them all day no problem.

You can shoot the 325 grain Hornady Leverevolution and make a reasonable 200 yard rifle out of it. All of these 45 70 bullets blow a hole right through anything they hit.

I got a nice forearm, made a cartridge holder and a sling and will add a larger lever loop later.

Mine is here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=623773&highlight=Marlin+45-70
 
So by theory these 1895's, after figuring out your trajectory, can be good long range shooters? I know the cartridge has a history of long range use. Will this action with a 22 in. barrel use the cartridge to a fair degree of it's true long range potential? What is the difference between the thickness of the guide rifle fore end a standard fore end?
 
You will never be sorry if you get either one. Marlin 1895 or the Guide gun. It is true you will have a lot less meat damage with the 45-70 vs most 30 caliber.
My safe holds these.
Two 1895 45-70
one Guide Gun 45-70
Thompson Center Encore 45-70
At one time i HAD a Magnum Research 45-70 revolver :eek:
 
The slow moving projectile of the .45-70 oughta be perfectly capable of transfering energy and not proving to be too much to be effective. Also less trauma means less meat damage. Also where I'm at in Texas there are tons of exotics. And plenty of huge ones too. How would a trap-door safe load fair against, say, water buffalo? I'm doing a terrible of wording what I mean, I know, but basically what I'm looking for is a good general purpose large bore.
Click to expand...

Howdy Again

I dunno about water buffalo, but the 45-70 was used by the American buffalo hunters all the time. Mike Venturino writes that a 520 grain bullet backed by a case full of Black Powder going between 1100 fps and 1200 fps will completely penetrate a full grown buffalo (bison). That is a Trapdoor safe load.

Yes, the 45-70 has a rainbow trajectory, but once it is figured out the round has great long range potential. When the cartridge was first developed, it had a 405 grain bullet. Minimum acceptable accuracy at the Sandy Hook trials was four inches at 100 yards. Hitting a 6 foot square target at 600 yards was common.

Later, a 500 grain bullet was substituted for the 405 grain bullet and it exhibited better long range accuracy. This load could reach distances of 3,350 yards. Effective range was limited to 1000 yards.

When I first started shooting my Trapdoor I noticed it was shooting very high at 100 yards. Later I found out that they were usually regulated for 225 yards.
 
It is a break open but I picked up a G2 Contender carbine in 45-70 a couple years ago for $450 (and got a 209X50 barrel and forend with it)...shoots great, kicks greater.
 
I like contenders, but I would get one in something more like .309 JDJ or a contender pistol in 7-30 Waters. I'm not really turned on by their .45-70's for whatever reason.

What do you guys think of the pistol grip stock on the standard 1895?

If a load will punch clean through a bison, I would imagine a water buff wouldn't stand much chance. I may add a trapdoor to my wishlist (right alongside the sharps, rolling block, 1876, Henry, Evans, Arsenal AK, SVD or SVD copy, AR, Vickers/Maxim, Thompson, Swedish K, BAR, 9.3x62 Mauser M03, and .470 NE Searcy Double. I better win the lottery. :rolleyes:) But at any rate, I'll probably add one to my collection someday. But at the moment, for the same price or less I can get a good shooting rifle with more rounds at handy and capability of hot loads in case I ever want to prank some unsuspecting unknowledgable shooter. That sounds like good fun.:D
 
Is there any accounts of how well the 45-70 did on the plains buffalo herds during the late 1800's? I ask this because those were relatively mild black powder loads. Yet they didn't seem to have any trouble with killing those buffalo. Perhaps you don't need to load to the max level possible with today's smokeless powders? After all, if it makes it out the other side then anything left for bullet energy is pretty much wasted, no? Maybe a trapdoor, which I would think managed to take out a fair number of horses and likely buffalo isn't as bad as you think.
 
No, I'm sure the trapdoor is perfectly fine. But still, I like the idea of the capability. More safe options = less danger in choices if a family member decides ammo is a good gift and doesn't know what they're getting, or any similar situation. Also, it's a nice, compact package. I hear the trapdoor carbines are not the finest shooters beyond 100 yards, and the rifle models are just too long for some hunting applications. The Marlin could be carried into brush, used easily in a blind, and still take some slightly longer shots (maybe up to 200-250 yards with after-market irons). It would be a little more practical for about the same price or less. It just sounds like a good idea to me.
 
Okay, I need a little clarification on the science behind big-bores and why penetration seems to be #1. As a deer hunter, I was always taught it was not about penetration, but energy transfer. If the bullet passes all the way through, it won't transfer all of it's energy. But everybody talks about 6 foot penetration for these ultra big-game hunting loads and boasting about complete pass throughs. It seems to me that the rounds with 18-24 inches of penetration would be better, not 6 feet, but I don't know. I can understanding piercing thick hide and bone, but a total pass through longwase on a cape buffalo does not seem necessary. I imagine I'm just ignorant of some bit of big-game ballistics here. Can someone please clarify? I feel like I'm asking a dumb question.
 
It doesn't take much for a clean pass through with a heart/lung shot on whitetail. There really isn't all that much in the thoracic cavity to stop things. Hell, I've had clean pass throughs with everything from Federal 00 buck to .30-06. In the end, a .45 caliber hole through the vitals is nothing to sneeze at.
 
That's just the thing, on a good, clean broadside chances are you're going to have a pass through regardless. Penetration is nice if say, you were to take a "Texas heart shot," or perhaps a quartering shot through the ham.
 
Nobody in their right mind would take those shots. You'd be shooting through the guts. So pretty much when buffalo bore advertises 18-24 inch penetration, and then says "only suitable for animals under 400 lbs", they're talking about giving a deer a .458 caliber sapository?
 
To put it another way, you can shoot it with a well constructed .30 soft point that may or may not expand to .45, or just start with a .45 and poke a .45 hole through from any angle.
 
You'd be surprised at the shots people make during gun season. If nobody made them, the term would never have entered the hunting vernacular...
 
The thing of it is, when you start talking about the BIG big game calibers (.375 H&H, .416 Rigby, .458 Lott etc...) you're talking about AFRICAN big game, not American big game.
If you look at a lot of African animals there is a LOT of animal to get through. Much much more than their New-World counterparts.

Let's compare Buffalo;

American Buffalo (bison).....

bison2.jpg

Cape Buffalo (near as dammit identical, skeletaly to the Asciatic Water Buffalo).....

cape-buffalo-shot-placement.jpg


As you can see, the African Buffalo has HUGE ribs. Overlapping plates of thick, heavy bone cover the vitals. The Bison has a much more typical ribcage with cylindrical ribs & lots of space between them.
When you start talking about Hippos, Rhinos, Elephant & Giraffe something like the .45-70 would be classed as a marginal round.

When the .45-70 was thought of, bullet construction, energy expenditure, expansion & things of that nature really hadn't been explored. It was literally a case of 'If it's not working, lets make it bigger!'
The problem you have with Black Powder loadings is that more powder doesn't equate to more power (well, it does, but there is a serious law of diminishing returns there) & the only way to increase power is to increase bullet weight, either by lengthening, or increasing caliber.

The idea of having a bullet pass all the way through was, at the time, a case of ensuring penetration to ALL the vitals, plus a shot animal with 2 holes is a lot easier to track than an animal with only one. 2 holes equals a lot quicker bleedout time, hydrostatic shock not being as simple with large calibers.
 
I guess the other thing to consider is that we can't guarantee a perfect shot. An animal my be perfectly broadside when we begin to take the shot & be hard quartering when the trigger breaks. In that case, a lot of penetration is a good thing!
Incedentally, a hard quartering shot isn't a bad thing at all, even if you do get a bit of gut. A well placed quartering shot, or even a 'suppository' shot is still going to drop your animal pretty dang quickly. Messy to dress, but very, very effective.
 
The notion of 100% energy dump versus pass thru is total nonsense.

Sorry Googleplex, but its a fact. The majority of hunting rounds pass thru.

I have not had a chance to hunt with a 45 70 yet but every account I have ever read is that it is a drt round most of the time.
 
I would not say any angle. It is not comparable to a 30-06. Effective range is generally considered to be 200 yards tops even then it is a foot low.
It is powerful enough to kill anything in North America and elsewhere if you know what you are doing. It is used in target shooting at longer ranges but it takes alot of effort.
 
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I'm sorry to be argumentative d2wing, but what a crock.

Even the original black powder loads in .45-70 are light years ahead of .410 slugs. A good, modern 'hot' load in .45-70 will knock a 12ga slug into a cocked hat.

The 'effective' range of the .45-70 is well over 200 yds. It's actually nearer to 2000yds. Yes it has a trajectory like a rainbow, but it's still carrying a crapload of energy when it lands. Even a moderate bullet weight of 405gn is devastatingly effective at much farther yardage than you'd want to shoot it. When you get up to the bigger bullets of 500gn+ that energy only increases.

As to a .410 slug, I personally wouldn't launch one at a whitetail at more than 30yds.
 
I think I see what ya'll are saying- since pass-thru with this cartridge, like so many others, is essentially inevitable, the main stream of thought is initial impact and then penetration to reach entirely across the vitals of an American Bison.
I don't know that I'd say .45-70 is entirely marginal for African game. I've heard of Aussies taking water buff with .308. Personally, I wouldn't try it. But a heavy buffalo bore .45-70 load or an ultra hot handload oughta be just the ticket, I would think. But of course then you've practically got a .458 Winchester, performance wise. I would still pick something else for rhino and elephant.
 
You're right, it is more than marginal if loaded right. I guess I meant that the original pressure, BP loads would be consider marginal.
When it comes to African game, bullet hardness & density start to come into play too. A soft lead or soft alloy bullet is just going to annoy a big Elephant! Unless you're shooting very hard alloy bullets, a frontal brain shot on a bull elephant is just going to put him in a bad mood & a heart/lung shot with just about anything is gonna get you turned into part of the landscape :D

All in all, as I'm sure you're aware, the .45-70 is an extremely versatile cartridge. I can tell you from experience, however, that it doesn't leave a lot of squirrel or rabbit for the pot!
 
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you should rush out and get a trapdoor. Just that it's an option if you're after a single shot for some uses.

I'm actually a huge lever gun fan so your choice of the Guide Gun had me nodding with approval... :D

I'm not a hunter so take what I post with some doubt and confirm. But I've read that the heavy .45-70 bullet choices tend to just plow through a lot more meat than the basic muzzle velocity would suggest. And traveling at a slower than usual speed I've also read that it does less damage to the meat on the animal around the path of the bullet.

Hey Coltdriver! What does "drt round" stand for? Direct Right Through?
 
DRT = Dead Right There.

You're absolutely right, by the way, 405 or 525gn of lead travelling at 1000-1200 FPS takes a hellova lot of stopping!
With the mass weight of these solid lead bullets & the lack of speed, expansion is minimal, therefore penetration is slow, steady & clean, but very, very certain!
 
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