Inexpensive Reliable .45-70 Breech Loader?
- Thread starter Googleplex
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How, pray tell, is an 87 grain .410 slug comparable to a 405 grain projectile moving at equal velocity? I haven't taken a physics course in a few years so I could stand for some education....
12 gauge foster slugs weigh 1 oz and step out at ~1500 FPS... A trapdoor safe 405 (.926 oz) can step out at ~1300 FPS if you hot rod it with 4227... Not seeing alot of difference...
I think that most of the rifles used by the "pro" Bison hunters were Sharps 50-90's...correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's a misconception that the 45-70 is a classic bison cartridge.
AGAIN...there are definitely people on here who know more about this than I do!
AK_Maine_iac
Member
Googleplex:
Here is some good reading material for you on through and trough shots. I really like the 540gr Hammerheads 45-70 for BIG BEAR protection up here in Alaska.
Now that i am reloading again i roll my own. Not as good tho, still working on it.
Only use in the proper gun. Not intended for older trapdoor rifles.
http://garrettcartridges.com/products.html
Here is some good reading material for you on through and trough shots. I really like the 540gr Hammerheads 45-70 for BIG BEAR protection up here in Alaska.
Now that i am reloading again i roll my own. Not as good tho, still working on it.
Only use in the proper gun. Not intended for older trapdoor rifles.
http://garrettcartridges.com/products.html
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The American Bison was shot with whatever the hunter had at the time of the hunt. Some hunters bought specialized rifles but a good case can be made that the 50-70 accounted for more bison than any other cartridge. The Sharps rifle has always had it's fan club but realistically, it was not a rifle that was affordable to the average fellow of the time. Unlike the "obsolete" Springfield and Sharps 50-70s. Even the 45-70 was quickly picked up by the hunters of the day.
And yes, the Trapdoor was tested at extreme range and found adequate for Military use.
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm
They did increase the powder charge to 80 grains but still, some interesting information.
The 45-70 is still used at extreme range today, on targets. Witness the 1000 yard matches. Not everyone is using a 45-110 or even a 45-90. I hunt with the 45 and 50 caliber trapdoors.
I hunt with the 45 and 50 caliber Trapdoors loaded with black powder and lead. They are beyond comparison with any shotgun.
Gplex, comparing a BP round with a smaller centerfire round (ie 308 Winchester) is difficult. both are effective but one is easier to hit with because of the flatter trajectory. Both will give pass through shots but one will leave a bigger, yet less damaging hole. Get all the information you can and make a decision. Neither cartridge will be a mistake. If you want a 308 lever rifle, consider the Browning BLR od Savage 99.
And yes, the Trapdoor was tested at extreme range and found adequate for Military use.
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm
They did increase the powder charge to 80 grains but still, some interesting information.
The 45-70 is still used at extreme range today, on targets. Witness the 1000 yard matches. Not everyone is using a 45-110 or even a 45-90. I hunt with the 45 and 50 caliber trapdoors.
I hunt with the 45 and 50 caliber Trapdoors loaded with black powder and lead. They are beyond comparison with any shotgun.
Gplex, comparing a BP round with a smaller centerfire round (ie 308 Winchester) is difficult. both are effective but one is easier to hit with because of the flatter trajectory. Both will give pass through shots but one will leave a bigger, yet less damaging hole. Get all the information you can and make a decision. Neither cartridge will be a mistake. If you want a 308 lever rifle, consider the Browning BLR od Savage 99.
Googleplex
Member
Oh no, I'm not considering a .308, I just brought up as a reference for the sake of clarification. I would like something that could handle all North American game from white-tail on up, and SOME African game with a hot-load. I don't ever plan on elephant hunting with a .45-70, I'll get .470 if I want to do that way later on down the road. And I'm very surprised at the Marlin's accuracy potential out of a tube fed rifle. Also, less meat damage for the win. How does the 18.5 inch barrel of the guide rifle compare to the standard 22 inch barrel of the 1895 standard model in terms of effective range and group sizes at various ranges?
Googleplex
Member
Those Garrett Cartridges look interesting. I find't realize there was an entire micromarket for .45-70 shooters, at least not one large enough to be sole enterprise of a company. That is probably one of the coolest things I've ever seen. The articles he wrote are neat as well. Some interesting points on .458 caliber bullets and penetration.
Jim Watson
Member
Yup, a 12 ga slug can run up some impressive numbers.
And they are effective on game at close to moderate range, although some of the older designs were marginal on penetration for fish and game crews carrying them for bear protection. Maybe they are better now.
But I don't know anybody who target shoots with slugs for fun and certainly not at any extended range, even 200 yards, which is peanuts for a .45-70 if you have the sight setting.
And they are effective on game at close to moderate range, although some of the older designs were marginal on penetration for fish and game crews carrying them for bear protection. Maybe they are better now.
But I don't know anybody who target shoots with slugs for fun and certainly not at any extended range, even 200 yards, which is peanuts for a .45-70 if you have the sight setting.
MuleRyder
Member
I used a Marlin Guide .45-70 on a black bear a few years ago...good medicine...on shot behind the ear...dead
Googleplex
Member
Is a guide gun every bit as capable of 1 moa as the 22 inch rifle? And does it group comparably at 200 yards?
MuleRyder
Member
The guide gun I used belonged to someone else, so I never really tested it's accuracy. But I will say that I loved the short length and handling of it in the brush. I would buy one. Ive had a 336 in .35 Rem that I bought new 30 yrs ago and it's my favorite deer rifle.
Googleplex
Member
I'm sure it's spectacular in brush. Where I'm at has a lot of brush country, but also a lot of open areas. I'm sure it's perfectly usable at 100 yards, but I'm wondering if it's performance is anywhere near that of it's 22 inch brother. I definitely would not be opposed to getting the guide gun if the performance is close.
Googleplex
Member
It seems that the prices are about identicle. Can anyone who has used both chime in on recoil differences, grouping differences at 100 yards and out to about 200-250 yards? This is what I need to know at this point.
AK_Maine_iac
Member
I have both. The difference between the 22" vs 18.5". All i can really say because i have not compared them at 200 yards. Both are MOA=Moose at that range. One shot drop in tracks dead, with Williams peep & fire sights.
When i started using the 540 grain loads i installed a mercury dead weight recoil system in both of them. Sweet recoil dampening system.
Not sure about now, but the first Guide Guns came with the ported bbl.
You could do like i did with one of my 1895's. It had the 22" bbl ,for $80.00 i had a gunsmith cut it down to 18.5" and re-crown it when i had the peep sights mounted. That way you could try the 22" and change out at a later date if needed.
When i started using the 540 grain loads i installed a mercury dead weight recoil system in both of them. Sweet recoil dampening system.
Not sure about now, but the first Guide Guns came with the ported bbl.
You could do like i did with one of my 1895's. It had the 22" bbl ,for $80.00 i had a gunsmith cut it down to 18.5" and re-crown it when i had the peep sights mounted. That way you could try the 22" and change out at a later date if needed.
Googleplex
Member
So I should probably expect comperable results from either one of 'em, I'm guessing? I'll probably just go for whichever I find first at the lowest price. Of course I would like it to be made between 1998 and 2007, in order to gain ballard rifling and not have have a gun bastardized by corporate greed on the part of FGI, but I'll settle for anything that will function reasonably.
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Googleplex
Member
Marlin never made a straight stock 22 inch in more recent years, did they?
MuleRyder
Member
Quote:Not sure about now, but the first Guide Guns came with the ported bbl
The one I used had a ported barrel, I forgot about that until you mentioned it.
The one I used had a ported barrel, I forgot about that until you mentioned it.
Googleplex
Member
Has the guide rifle always been ballard rifled?
I answered my own question: They were introduced in 1998, the same year Marlin went back to the ballard method. So yes, they have always been ballard rifled. That's a plus for me.
I answered my own question: They were introduced in 1998, the same year Marlin went back to the ballard method. So yes, they have always been ballard rifled. That's a plus for me.
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Jim Watson
Member
Back in a bygone era, early in the fourth quarter of the 20th century, a friend had a first generation reissue 1895. It had "conventional rifling for cast and jacketed bullets." And an action strong enough "for loads listed for the 1886 Winchester." It had a straight grip stock, too. Which looked nice, but I have always preferred the Marlin pistol grip to their straight grip or a Winchester's straight or half pistol grip.
They then went to "Modified Microgroove rifling for cast and jacketed bullets."
But it wasn't long before they went to regular shallow Microgroove and quit saying anything that would lead you to think that handloads were acceptable in their rifles.
So they eventually got back to conventional six groove rifling which they call "Ballard Style" for the historical connection because Marlin owned Ballard at one time. I don't think a Marlin excec would know a Ballard if it bit him on the knee.
They then went to "Modified Microgroove rifling for cast and jacketed bullets."
But it wasn't long before they went to regular shallow Microgroove and quit saying anything that would lead you to think that handloads were acceptable in their rifles.
So they eventually got back to conventional six groove rifling which they call "Ballard Style" for the historical connection because Marlin owned Ballard at one time. I don't think a Marlin excec would know a Ballard if it bit him on the knee.
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