Info on Philipino 1911 clones please

[Noveldoc]

trying to get feedback good or bad on the new .45 ACP clones from the Philippines. Big names getting the buzz are American classic and Firestorm. Most writers say the Firestorm is made by the same ARMSCOR connected factory but some say Spain and I have seen a Firestorm Commander clone marked that ti was made in Spain. To add to confusion, the old Star factory in Spain is still producing Firestorms but they are smaller carry guns.

I have read a couple of gun mag reviews rating very good for fit, finish and function. The pistols both come in a more basic GI clone model and a deluxe with bells and whistles like Novak like sight, extended safety and mag release, beaver tail, etc. They appear to be very nicely blued with nice checkered wood grips. Prices I have seen new range from $359 to about $450 but they are hard to get. I think MSRP for the tricked out model is $499.

I have also seen negative comments on boards but I am not sure these are from folks who have fired the guns.

Note that they are sort of 1911 clones but apparently built on metric system.

Anybody know anything about or have any experience with them.

Tom

 

[Mp7]

built on metric systems? That´s called Glock isn´t it?

 

[gb6491]

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=472937
Regards,
Greg

 

[EHL]

I know you'll hear alot of guys saying that their Philipino made 1911 is great and all that. I'll be in the minority that tells you that I wouldn't buy one. I have shot more than my fair share of them too. One particular occasion sticks out in my mind: I was at the range shooting some of my 1911's and there was this military guy with his girlfriend shooting his AR. One of my shooting companions happened to be friends with this guy and he asked him to "show and tell". He showed us his AR and then asked what we had been shooting. We proceeded to show him some of 1911's to which he then revealed his own 1911 holstered on his hip. It was a blued 1911, government model and he quickly demonstrated it by emptying one of his mags promptly. I was curious to compare his 1911 to some of my own and so when he offered me to try his out, I quickly accepted his offer. I fired the first round and immediatly stopped because it felt so foreign to me! I literally felt the slide slowly and wobbly cycle back and forth. I'd never felt that before in any 1911 that I'd ever shot so it caught me by surprise. I emptied the rest of the mag but each subsequent shot reproduced that same nasty cycling. I looked at the pistol to see it's brand and I saw "Made in the Phillipines" or something to that effect. He said that he had picked it up while stationed over there and I think he paid upwards of $400 for it. I remember leaving that day thanking God that I had never bought anything of the sort. That's just one of many experiences that I've had with some really cheesy foreign made 1911's. You'll now hear several people come in and refute this with thier own positive experiences of these 1911's. Good luck with whatever choice you make though.

 

[WoofersInc]

That's just one of many experiences that I've had with some really cheesy foreign made 1911's. You'll now hear several people come in and refute this with thier own positive experiences of these 1911's. Good luck with whatever choice you make though.

Alright I'll bite. I am not going to make this about foriegn versus domestic, but ALL manufacturers will put out bad guns. I don't care who's name is on the side. Having experianced one from the Phillipines doesn't mean they are all bad. Rock Island would not be doing the buisness they are and have the following they do, if they put out nothing but junk. Think of the number of times people will say stay away from foriegn and buy a Colt or a Springfield. The suprise they have when told some Springfields are made in Brazil can be quite funny.

This is one of the things that can bug me about internet gun forums. People will have a bad experiance with 1 item and instantantly every single item from that builder is junk. Irregardless of the thousands of people who have and like whatever from that builder.

 

[EHL]

People will have a bad experiance with 1 item and instantantly every single item from that builder is junk.

I have shot more than my fair share of them too.

I've shot more than "1 item", I just chose to relate one experience. I've shot plenty of others and they have not overly impressed me either.

Think of the number of times people will say stay away from foriegn and buy a Colt or a Springfield. The suprise they have when told some Springfields are made in Brazil can be quite funny.

I wouldn't lump Springfield in anywhere near the same category as a RIA. Military, police, and swat units across the US, trust and regularly issue Springfield products. I can't think of even one law enforcement/ military entity that issues RIA or other Phillipino made arms. Gotta wonder why????

Having experianced one from the Phillipines doesn't mean they are all bad.

Agreed. I merely offered my own opinion on something I consider too low a standard for the venerated 1911 design.

ALL manufacturers will put out bad guns. I don't care who's name is on the side.

Further agreed. I know Colt, Springer, and Kimber regularly put out lemons. It's the nature of the beast when you have a mass produced product. However, their QC and base components (forged slides and frames) tend to be of higher quality than their foreign competition. Even the often maligned MIM parts are head and shoulders above the pot metal cast parts comprising these budget 1911's. I would still opt with any of these three American companies over a RIA or similar foreign 1911 manufacturer.

Rock Island would not be doing the buisness they are and have the following they do, if they put out nothing but junk.

You're equating business success with quality of product. I grant you, that although there usually is a very close relationship between the two, it is not an absolute. RIA has a good marketing track record because they are attracting the "thrifty" 1911 shopper. For the price of a new Kimber or Springer, you could buy 3 RIA's! Those sorts of prices gaurantee sales. If they even put out a half decent product that sends a bullet down range, most will be content. After all, for the money, what more could they have wanted? I wouldn't however, equate this with quality though.

 

[bannockburn]

Noveldoc

A friend of mine had one; a nickel plated Government model. I worked on it for him as he wanted a beavertail grip safety installed, along with a few other modifications. First thing I noticed was that the gun itself was very tight, with virtually no play at all between the slide and the frame, as well as the barrel inside the slide. Lock-up was also precise and the whole gun cycled smoothly. All of the aftermarket parts fit perfectly, though I did have to do a little filing to get the grip safety in there properly (I suspect the nickel plate was a little heavier in this area of the frame). All in all a very handsome and functional gun that has performed flawlessly with factory and handloaded ammo. I believe he paid approximately $499 for the gun.

 

[bdb benzino]

I have Firestorm Deluxe 1911 that is made in the Phillippines by Metro Arms, now the older Firestorms are made in Spain by Llamma. There is a huge difference!!! The FS I have has a forged slide and cast frame and is as well fitted as my Springfeild Loaded!! The one EHL is talking about must be an earlier RIA, but the new ones are great!! Both my newer Armscore made officer model and my full size Firestorm have 500+ rounds through them and have 0 malfunctions. Dont lump all the PH made stuff together and talk bad without going and checking out what is currently comming from them.

 

[rondog]

Don't ask here, go to 1911auto.org, m1911.org and 1911forum.com, and ask the thousands of 1911 owners at those sites what they think. You'll find that anything made by Armscor (Rock Island Armory, High Standard, older Charles Dalys, and STI Spartan frames) are generally regarded very highly. The brands you mentioned, American Classic and Firestorm, to my knowledge ARE NOT associated with Armscor. I could be mistaken about that, but I own three Rock Island Armory 1911's and I ain't giving up ANY of them.

Oh, and FWIW - if I personally were in the market for another 1911 (I already have enough), I'd seriously consider the RIA Tactical model, in the satin nickel finish. Put some prettier grips on it and you'd have a dandy pistol for well under $500.

 

[EHL]

Rondog, that is a pretty RIA!

 

[Noveldoc]

Thanks for all the feedback pro and con. I talked to the gunsmith at my rage and he said he had sold and seen a few. He said it is basically just like an old timer 1911. It only likes GI hardball though it can be coaxed the eat 230 gr RN lead. With preferred ammo, feeding and functi9oning is OK.

He felt you should expect no less than 6" to 8" groups and he doubts you will get the real tight stuff. He hasn't seen one yet with the Novak like sights, just GI spec And the triggers tend to be stiff.

He did say though that these pistols could make a good intro to 1911s for someone on a budget. As long as one expected your basic "shootin' iron" they would be happy.

Tom

 

[PT1911]

lets see... who owned that plant before the current company? what machinery were they using? who was building the guns for them? and where were they getting their supplies?

answer these questions and you will see they are quality guns that ARE comprable to MUCH more expensive guns...

 

[doc540]

"He felt you should expect no less than 6" to 8" groups and he doubts you will get the real tight stuff."

I'm an old man with bad eyesight and, certainly, no marksman.

Here are the holes made yesterday by my fourth magazine load out of my new "Philippine" 1911 at 30 feet.



Perhaps your gunsmith should raise his expectations by actually shooting one.

fwiw: It shot 2" right at 30 feet.

First eight rounds:


Next 16 rounds learning to compensate for the 2" adjustment:


My gunsmith was impressed with the overall quality. He's working on the trigger a bit and adjusting the sights.

I'll probably shoot it again this coming Saturday (or sooner) and report back.

YMMV



List of features:
A conventional, non-firing pin safety “Government Model” with 5” barrel and carbon steel construction, it comes out of the box with the following features:

* “Novak” style fixed, three-dot dovetailed sights. (More on that later)
* Extended magazine release button.
* Extended slide stop.
* Extended single-sided speed thumb safety.
* Extended and widened beavertail grip safety.
* Skeletonized Colt Commander type hammer.
* Long steel trigger with over-travel stop.
* Flat, grooved mainspring housing.
* Italian “ACT” 8-round magazine (private branded by Novak’s .45 Shop)
* Slightly extended ejector, lowered and scalloped ejection port.

Hope this helps.

 

[nitetrane98]

You're getting a little bit of everything mixed all together. The American Classic and Firestorm are identical pistols with a different name made by the same company, Metro Arms, not Armscor, which makes the RIA, I believe. Both are Philipine companies. The old Spanish LLama Firestorms are to be looked upon with a jaundiced eye. I believe that LLama is completely room temperature now and any previously made LLama is a motherless child now. No parts, no service, no nothing.

I literally felt the slide slowly and wobbly cycle back and forth.

Sounds like every GI 1911 I ever shot except the slow part.

EHL, I'm going to have to call BS here. Slowly and wobbly? I think in all fairness it would behoove you to identify what you are comparing these "slow and wobbly " pistols to. You obviously must spend a lot of time at ranges etc where there are an abundance of these cheesy Filipino guns to have shot quite a few of them. Most folks I know have never seen one much less fired one. My Firestorm has a 800's SN. I bought it a few months ago. Hard to figure how all these are congregating in your area. Seems a little unusual that you would fire a gun that felt so ghastly and foreign to you and can only recall that it said "Made in the Philipines or something to that effect."

I think you're making up a good story so you can't be accused of bashing a gun you've never shot. I could be wrong. You may very well be a connisseur of fine 1911 type guns and as such have a finely tuned feeling for such things as slow and wobbly.

 

[rbernie]

I have two Citadels and one RIA currently - all Armscor products. They all work as well as any other 1911 that I own. There are some things that I like about them, and some things that I don't. But all in all, they are absolutely solid pistols that have proven reasonably accurate, reliable with a variety of ammo, that will reputedly last well, and that have a high feature-to-price ratio.

 

[EHL]

I could be wrong. You may very well be a connisseur of fine 1911 type guns and as such have a finely tuned feeling for such things as slow and wobbly.

You hit the nail on the head with this guess. All the other ones were..... bad guesses.

Sounds like every GI 1911 I ever shot except the slow part.

What GI's have you been shooting?? My first 1911 was a GI and it never, ever felt wobbly. I'd hate to have seen the sorry excuses of 1911's that you shot.

You obviously must spend a lot of time at ranges etc where there are an abundance of these cheesy Filipino guns to have shot quite a few of them.

Have you seen the prices on these guns? There's quite a few out there, the price tag almost gaurantees that.

My Firestorm has a 800's SN. I bought it a few months ago.

Good for you. Who said anything about the gun I fired necessarily being a Firestorm? That's good detective work there Sherlock!

Seems a little unusual that you would fire a gun that felt so ghastly and foreign to you and can only recall that it said "Made in the Philipines or something to that effect."

It was years ago, I didn't recognize that particular brand but I remembered reading it was made in the Philipines. When I asked what type of 1911 it was, he told me he got it in the Philipines. The gun handled horribly, what did I care who it came from other than being greatful that I didn't buy it. For that matter, I don't recall the brand of magazine that he was using either. I also don't recall the serial number on the reciever either. I guess I must have imagined the entire affair, just like you suggest. Come to think of it, I can't recall any of the seriel numbers on any of my other firearms that I own.........I guess I must be imagining or making those up too.

I think you're making up a good story so you can't be accused of bashing a gun you've never shot.

Thanks for calling me a liar. You don't have to agree with my opinion. I wrote what I did because the OP asked for imput on these firearms. I've handled more than my share to form an opinion on them. Maybe there have been some improvements to them, I wouldn't deny this is a possiblity. If you or others disagree, that's your right; but to simply devolve into ad hominem attacks (liar, liar, pants on fire) is simply not High Road. Thanks for smearing me.

 

[doc540]

"years ago"

I posted my experience from yesterday.

And, trust me, when i get it back from the gunsmith and it happens to go south on me...I'll report that, too.

btw:
Here's a pic from the Gunblast review and a quote:


"The Firestorm / American Classic 1911 is capable of match-grade accuracy."

 

[nitetrane98]

For that sentence, I will apologize. I truly meant to edit to infer that you "could" be making it up.
OTOH, the OP asks specifically about American Classic and Firestorm and you give a blanket indictment of Philipine guns based on one you fired years ago.

I was talking about real Army issue m1911s like the kind issued to the Natinal Guard. Worn out hand me downs from the regular Army. Will you tell me you've never heard of a slide rattling on a GI issue 1911 type? We had every type made. I'm almost positive i remember seeing a Singer in one of the racks.

I mentioned the SN on my Firestorm to illustrate that there aren't that many of them even around yet, and yet you've fired a lot of them.

Specifically, how many Firestorms or American Classics have you fired?

 

[Sam1911]

Even the often maligned MIM parts are head and shoulders above the pot metal cast parts comprising these budget 1911's.

Just for clarity: These budget 1911s comprise pot metal cast parts (in the opinion of the poster), not the other way 'round. Unless you intended to say that those pot metal parts are made of budget 1911s. And that would just be weird.

com·prise
1 : to include especially within a particular scope
2 : to be made up of

In the spirit of healthy debate.

-Sam

 

[EHL]

OTOH, the OP asks specifically about American Classic and Firestorm and you give a blanket indictment of Philipine guns based on one you fired years ago.

The title of the thread says nothing about American Classic and Firestorm 1911's. The first line in the thread repeats the thread title specifying Philipino 1911's. In the second line, he then makes mention of some "big names" and gives two examples of these Philipino made 1911's. I tried answering the OP's question with my own opinion in the more broad terms of "Philipino 1911's in general". You will, or at least should have noticed that I did not make mention of American CLassic, Llama, RIA, etc... in my anecdote because I honestly did not recall which brand it was. If I had been merely "dreaming" or "making this stuff up" it would have been easier just to pull any name out of the air and say that was the brand that was so terrible.

I mentioned the SN on my Firestorm to illustrate that there aren't that many of them even around yet, and yet you've fired a lot of them.

Show me my quote where I specifically mentioned "I fired many Firestorms", and I'll even open up a thread apologizing for all of the misinformation/ lies I've been spreading. I was speaking about Philipino 1911's in general. I have fired many different ones. Here's how I've gotten my hands on them to test fire.... I have two gunsmith friends, one of them a dear family friend going back many years. Both of them regularly do work on 1911's. One of them specializes in 1911's and gets guys from all over the state and surrounding areas to work on thier 1911's. In some of these visits to either of these gentlemen, I've seen some of the 1911's brought in by other customers and the Philipino 1911's are common ones. (Llama, RIA, Firestorm, etc..) Often, we'd go to the range and they'd bring some of these pistols to verify function. Inevitably, I'd get to shoot'em as well. Some handled just fine, and others were less than what I'd expect. That's not say that they didn't empty the magazine just fine, it just didn't feel "right". Afterwards, they'd show me how the factory would often make some of these with misaligned slide rails, misaligned pin holes, oversized or undersized pin holes, frames and slides with rails not even parallel, lugs not even properly formed, etc..... That's not to say that American made guns are absent these imperfections. Colt, Springfield, and Kimber have all sent out there share of poor specimens. When you compare how many 1911's they sell compared to some of the other brands, anybody could objectively judge that by and large, they make a fair 1911 despite their mistakes. Last but not least, call me biased or patriotic but I do prefer to "buy American".
My gunsmith buddies often ended our shooting range trip or 1911 inspection with some sort of buyer beware warning, "You know alot of these will work fine for the money, but I've seen too many of these with similar problems to ever recommend one to anybody who is seriously looking for a quality 1911." (Obviously paraphrased) Again, I draw my conclusion from both personal experiences I've had shooting these firearms as well as informed opinions from individuals I respect. If that's not a good enough reason for me to form an opinion, than you can at least take comfort in the fact that you didn't pay much for it.

 

[mbdolfin]

I have a Firestorm

I have a Firestorm .45 made by Metro Arms. Serial # in the mid 900's. I picked it up for $420.00 The gun is very tight. I cut the center of the target out at 15 yrds with it so that is good enough for me. I have ran over 1000 rounds through it without a malfunction.
This would not be my go to gun in an emergency.... but i think it was $420.00 well spent!

 

[Noveldoc]

Thanks for the accuracy debate. It does sound a bit like dissing somebody's gun is like kicking his dog. ;-)

Function problems? Do they feed only GI hardball? Major issues with jams, stoppages and breakdowns?

I do have some nice hard lead round nosed bullets with a bit of a flat tip that seem to feed in any 45.

Gotta give a shout out to Friendswood Bullet Co. Good hard lead stuff with great service. Not quite the cheapest on the 'net but reasonable and I get good accuracy with no leading with all 45 loads and moderate .44 mag loads.

Tom

 

[DaBull]

I have two gunsmith friends...I've seen some of the 1911's brought in by other customers and the Philipino 1911's are common ones...Inevitably, I'd get to shoot'em as well.

Well, I guess I might have a poor opinion of a particular type of pistol if all I did was shoot the fixer-uppers that people sent to my gunsmith friend. I would much rather hear from a LGS owner who sells Armscor or Metro Arms--what percent of guns do customers attempt to bring back for refunds or service?

 

[nitetrane98]

Function problems? Do they feed only GI hardball? Major issues with jams, stoppages and breakdowns?

With .45acp just beginning to show up fairly recently, I've only put a little over 200 rounds through mine. I've used nothing but 230gr FMJ. It fed it perfectly. I would be very surprised if it didn't digest RN lead equally well. I have about 1K cast 230gr RN slugs that I'll be loading when I can accumulate enough brass for a good session at the bench. I'll likely never know if it feeds JHPs. I use a Delta Gold Cup for SD.

All I can find to complain about with the Firestorm Deluxe is small cosmetic things. You can see a few sanding/grinding marks on the safety and the front sight. The grips, while functional, are a bit crudely checkered and seem to be a bit thicker than most. I put a set of those Pachmyer half wood half rubber grips on it mainly because I kind of liked the way they looked and I found them on sale for half price. Turns out they feel very good in the hand. I had to hold my nose for the front cocking serrations.

Mechanically, it's very tight. Tighter than my DGC. But 1000's of rounds of hot 10mm will loosen up any gun. I haven't really wrung it out on accuracy yet. About 10 yds on a paper plate off hand you could cover with a baseball. Most of my shooting with it is plinking at stuff floating down the river.

If price was of no concern, I probably would have bought another Colt. But it was and all I really wanted was a shooting .45 Govt model. Of course only time will tell what the longevity of these guns is. I truly doubt that I will ever fire over 10k rounds through it in my lifetime. It's not like it's the only gun I have.

 

[weisse52]

I prefer Colt....

I like Norinco....

I am an American gun snob....(well, except for that Norinco thing)

The Armscor products that I have seen, handled, shot, in my opinion are fine products. They are a little "rougher" in some cases than my beloved Colts. But in all cases they seem to shot and function just fine.
I may buy one in .38 Super to convert to 9mm. Will it be my favorite 1911, NO, but even I would not blanket call them "crap".

I have shot some cheesy 1911's, but these are not in that group.

YOUR EXPERIENCE MAY VARY....