Ingot testing time frame

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Casull

Casull

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Jan 12, 2020
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Should i wait a week after casting before testing an ingot for hardness?
 
There is a table in the Lyman casting manual I believe that shows the time versus hardness curve and it's constantly changing
 
Don't know what the books say, I've always waited 2 weeks before testing ingots or shooting the cast bullets.
 
Well i just waited 2 weeks and learned that i really really messed everything up and waisted weeks trying to make it right. I ruined my whole bar of superhard unknowingly then i mixed it in with lead antimony tin and arsnic Then cast and heat treated at 460 for 1 hour then quenched in 50 degree water only to loose 2 bhn 3 days later. This is crazy! I have know idea how this is working for other people. How does someone go from 12 to 30 bhn by heat treating when i cant even gain 1 bhn?
 
Eventually ill load for 454 casull once i figure out how to f****n Heat treat. If i give up ill just use them for 45lc.
 
You may find out that gas checked bullets or powder coating get you by with out the frustration. If you are driven to know the answer I would contact riflewoman on accurate shooter dot com. She is some kind of chemist or metal worker that knows exactly how all this crap works.
 
Ill do that. Once i start shooting ill be able to figure alot of important facts out. Im just trying to heat treat at this point, i cant let this beat me. Even if i dont heat treat bullets for use. I just need to successfully raise hardness using an oven.
 
Eventually ill load for 454 casull once i figure out how to Heat treat. If i give up ill just use them for 45lc.
Click to expand...

From the Los Angeles Silhouette Club:
Heat treating lead/antimony/arsenic alloys is a highly useful tool for bullet casters. A BHN range can be selected for any given load/firearm combination we are loading for and BHN variation will be kept to an absolute minimum, the trick is to not over do it.
Wheel weight alloy with an average composition of: 1/2% tin, 3-4% antimony, 1/4% arsenic and 951/4% lead can be heat treated to well over 30 BHN but it's a rare bullet that needs to be this hard unless your shooting very top end 454 Casull loads at 65,000 PSI.
Click to expand...

Key Points of The Article

  • Lead-tin alloys age soften quickly.

  • Antimony is an effective method of strengthening lead.

  • Lead-antimony alloy can be strengthened by quenching.

  • Small amounts of arsenic have particularly strong effects on the age-hardening response of such alloys.

  • Heat treating and rapid quenching prior to aging enhance these effects.

  • The percentage of antimony greatly effects the amount of time for strengthening to occur when heat treating or quenching. The alloy containing 2% Sb clearly does not respond sufficiently to be considered as a possible alternative. The 4% Sb alloy, however, attains a hardness of 18 HV after 30 min.
Click to expand...
  • The composition of wheel weights is nearly ideal for responding to heat treatment, (lead/antimony/arsenic).

  • The higher the tin content of the alloy the less the alloy will respond to heat treating and the faster it will age soften. (2-3% is fine unless your goal is 30+ BHN which is very rarely needed)
Click to expand...
The wheel weight lead is only 1/2 of 1 % of tin and the rest is lead and antimony with 1/4 of 1% of arsenic for a catalyst.
What is your alloy, particularly the tin content?

This is the complete article. http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm
 
I think that might have hit the spot thank you. Im going to use the exact recipe they mentioned just to see it work. Im using about 3-4% tin. I dont intend on shooting a cast bullet at 65,000 psi but id like to achieve a hardness of 30 just to see it work then i can regain my confidence. You’ve inspired me to keep trying.
 
Your welcome,
I thought I remembered you saying about 4% tin but I couldnt find the thread.
That will definately keep your alloy from hardening up.
Something else to keep in mind is the bullets cast with this much antimony will grow in dia, not shrink.
Keep an eye on dia.
They also mention using an electric convention oven instead of gas fired cooking oven.
More consistant temp inside means more consistant hardness between bullets.
 
Im using a toaster oven that maxes out at 450 but im using a pid and for some reason it will get the temp to 460 without tripping the limit switch on the oven and the oven still checks out ok. I just casted a handful using cww yesterday then treated them at 460 for an hour. I didnt test them before i treated them like i should have and that sucks but sofar one tested at 15 so we’ll se come the 7th.
 
Yeah ice water and very fast quench. Heres the latest update. I treated bullets made of cww and i for some reason i only get up to 20 not the 25 described. The other bullets that are giving me trouble are still at 15 after two weeks. Its killing me that i cant do this
 
I know I read in that article that the recipe for ww lead has changed over the years and I have no idea what recipe my wheel weight lead was made from except it is 1990s stuff.
What temperature are you melting your alloy to when you cast your bullets?
 
I heat the toaster oven to 460 then put the trey in then wait for it to reach 460 again then i cook for 1 hour then I quickly submerge the trey in icy water. The bullets are 300 grain 454. Its now 1 week after and they are BHN 20 so my heat treating gained me about 4. Im really hating that i cant figure this out. I could freeze them and get better results. My alloy has arsenic in it to aid the treating but that was a waste of money because it did nothing at all. If i left the toaster oven unplugged then i could get the same results without raising the power bill. I might be on to something finally.
 
I added a little more antimony also to no avail. At this point concrete wont even raise the hardness past 20
 
Just go by the weight they drop out. I can case bullets out of my “standard” 230 grain mold that weigh from 240 grains (soft pure lead) to 210 grains (very hard alloy) and don’t worry about the other stuff. If it’s been intentionally aged before use around here it’s likely a drink that comes out when the best of friends come over.

That said, I cast in batches so most all do sit ready to load for quite some time.
 
7A467942-6FC9-4C5E-929E-7DF75F35B3C0.jpeg C68542AC-D0C7-46FB-9A8F-0A5F5194720F.jpeg 3F3DD98A-83A1-4604-9024-6715FBCF15FE.jpeg 844EA9A6-772B-4132-B088-BDC5EE7709F6.jpeg A2474097-CC25-41FD-AEC7-9D03573ECDC4.jpeg Ok so I'm still chugging along through this mud. New update, i purchased a convection oven and modified this little bastard to get up to 700 f*^kin degrees causing the handle to melt off... oops. Now heat is not an issue, i wrote down every step of the way, every detail from determining the slump temp to reducing heat, all of it. See photos. This last batch i did will be only 24 hrs old at 11:00 tonight so its too soon to tell if my research and testing paid off. My new annoying question to the forum is this, how can my alloy not be responding to treating? I dont mean that like im the best i mean that like i dont know what im doing wrong. It is a **** alloy meaning all this messing around and testing and adding is causing me to loose track of whats in it. So now i have 7 pounds of ant/led/tin/ars that wont heat treat (so far). I think my alloy is trash only because i dont know what i can do to fix it. Everyone ive been talking to on the forum is trying to help the best they can and thank you all but i still cant give anyone good news.
 
tightgroup tiger said:
How much Tin is in your alloy? It' s the only thing I know of that will keep you from being able to harden the alloy up.
Click to expand...
So i think the tin might be on the high side around 4-6% i think the lee 6 cav mold instructions recommended 4 or 6%. Im testing a batch of the same bullets made of clip on wheel weights now but im at 490 degrees and this test bullet isnt slumping. Possibly because i already heat treated it at 460
 
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