Innovative Weapons

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mtgale00

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I was nearly driven to throw myself on a sword after reading a couple of threads on Armalites AR-24. First lets take a look at the word innovation:

in·no·va·tion [ ìnnə váysh'n ] (plural in·no·va·tions)

noun

Definition:

1. origination: the act or process of inventing or introducing something new

2. new idea or method: a new invention or way of doing something
suspicious of fax machines and other technological innovations

in·no·va·tion·al adjective

Your right, there is absolutely nothing innovative about the AR-24. Enough said.

Lets discuss truly innovative weapons and come up with a top ten list. Don't just rant about another users choice. List your choices and why. I'll help get you started:

Wilhelm and Paul Mauser (Bolt Action)
Samuel Colt (Revolver)
John Browning (Enough Said)
John Garand (Enough Said)
Eugene Stoner (Direct Impingement)
Mikhail Kalashnikov (Enough Said)
Ludwig Vorgrimmler (Roller Locked Bolts)
Dieudonne Saive and Ernest Vervier (FN FAL)

No clones, copies or ripoffs. You will be verbally eviscerated if you break the rules.
 
Maxim? :scrutiny: Come on! Maxim's only innovation was figuring out how to use a cartridge's recoil to load a new round and cock a hammer. Not like that's anything important or useful. :neener:

Is this a thread for innovative weapons, or successful weapons? There wasn't all that much innovative about the FAL or AK, for example - they just were better polished designs than some contemporaries. And some of the innovative stuff - GyroJets, electronic ignition, caseless ammo - has never become commercially successful.

Anyway, my addition to the list would be Paul Vieille, for inventing smokeless powder. :)
 
John Garand (Enough Said) - IMO, nothing new, the M1 is just a product-improved Mondragon rifle of 1908 vintage, retrofitted with en-block clips ;)


Mikhail Kalashnikov (Enough Said) absolutely nothing new - just a clever combination of previously known solutions.

Ludwig Vorgrimmler (Roller Locked Bolts) - same could be credited to Karl Horn and Walter Gruner of MG42 fame.

Dieudonne Saive and Ernest Vervier (FN FAL) - technically speaking, FAL is just an update of Tokarev's SVT-40, and it lost much of its ingenuity when Americans forced the 7,62x51 down the throats of NATO instead of more promising .280 / 7x43 round
 
Who invented the Mateba? Not exactly successful but sure was innovative.
I think there were one or two trys before it around 1904 or so but nothing
that worked well and nothing between or since.
 
.45 guy
Thanks for mentioning the AG-42 you beat me too it. The French also used it a little later in the MAS44 (all before Stoner's AR-15)

Which got me to thinking.
The AR-15 uses a Multi lug locking bolt. (Which was also not developed by Stoner either)

Melvin Johnson used this style of locking in his M1941 Johnson Rifle.
Though I don't know if this is considered inovative or not.

Perhaps the Federov could be considered Inovative but the mondragon may have it beat chronologically.

Brother in Arms
 
Heck, the Mondragon had 6 lugs if I recall correctly. 3 front, and 3 rear.
 
In my eyes, the AK-47 deserves to be on the innovative list because of its proliferation. The AK is the Model T of the gun world, in my eyes. The Model T wasn't significantly different from its contemporaries, but its method of manufacture was.

Also, dare I say it: Gaston Glock. Really now, who is going to buy a plastic gun? :)

What about the person who invented hollowpoints? (or maybe what company made them into viable rounds)
 
Second the Gaston Glock... I don't really care much for them, but just look at how far GLOCK pistols have come over 20-something years. Might not have been that innovative, but more successful than anything else I can think of (Except maybe Microsoft).
 
Nah, Glock has no place on a list of firearm innovators. The Glock is a well designed and well marketed pistol, but it contains nothing innovative.
 
Don't quote me on any of this. My firearms history is a little rusty ;)

Whatever the first firearm was

Whatever the first revolver was

Whatever the first firearm with rifleing was

Baker rifle (I believe this was the first standardized, mass produced piece of machinery in the world)

Ferguson rifle (first succesful breech loader)

Volcanic rifle (first succesful caseless cartridge and first repeating rifle)

Gatling gun etc (first succesful 'automatic' firearm)

Henry rifle (first succesful metallic cartridge rifle)

Vetterli rifle (first succesful bolt-action rifle)

Colt SAA (first succesful metallic cartridge pistol)

Maxim (first succesful truely automatic firearm)

Borchardt pistol (first succesful self-loading pistol)

Mondragon (first succesful self-loading rifle)

Madsen LMG (first succesful LMG)

Thorneycroft carbine (first succesful bullpup rifle)

Federov (first succesful assault rifle)

AG42 (first succesful direct impingement rifle)

CETME (first succesful roller-delayed blowback - there were some German prototype MG42s using it, but they were not issued)

HK VP70 (Or was that the Steyr GB? I forget, but either way they beat Glock to it on the polymer frame)

Stgw.90 (first succesful transparent magazine and first magazines that clip together)

M4 RIS/RAS system (first succesful tacticool bolt-stuff-on-your-rifle-system)
 
Thought I believe Colt patented it first, I don't think his revolvers were the first. I forget where I heard that though so I may well be wrong.
 
Some of the biggest gun-related innovations in recent years have to do with sighting systems. An Eotech/Kobra/Aimpoint is a long way from an iron sight. Laser-rangefinding scopes will also have a big impact on long-range shooting, I think.
 
Nah, Glock has no place on a list of firearm innovators. The Glock is a well designed and well marketed pistol, but it contains nothing innovative.
Click to expand...

Did anyone else make a polymer-framed pistol before Glock did? I believe something is innovative when everyone and their uncle runs out and copies it. Almost every major firearms manufacturer has a polymer-framed weapon on the market.

And before you say that changing the material an object is made from is not innovative, take a look at what your world would be like without plastic. Stone age, iron age, bronze age...

I love different materials and I truly feel that different materials are innovative. In my kitchen, I have spoons made from steel, wood, plastic, and silicone. The silicone one blows my mind every time I use it.
 
Interesting, Fosbery. Was it a commercial success? Why is it that Glock seems to get all the credit for polymer? (Legit questions, not trying to be flippant)
 
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