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install gas checks

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by billj888, Aug 18, 2013.

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  1. billj888

    billj888 Member

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    Due to unavailability of .308 fmj I am thinking of using cast lead through my M-1 if I can find enough at the right price. How do you install a gas check? Do I use the sizing die or is a new die required? I have been reloading jacketed for the M-1 and a Win Mod 54 in .30-06 for several years. I want to get some good velocity out of the two rifles, in excess of 2200fps if possible. Assuming I have the cast bullets and the gas checks, what's my next step?
     
  2. jcwit

    jcwit Member

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  3. Wil Terry

    Wil Terry Member

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    ACTUALLY, your first step should be to do some SERIOUS reading over on the cast bullet site. The NRA book of cast bullets is also de'rigour. AND let it be known the use of CB's in a Garand rifle will open up further headaches of profound proportion.
     
  4. jcwit

    jcwit Member

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    Problems? Do you have personal experience with the problems? I have shot thousands of rounds thru gas operated rifles without any problems, and none with the gas piston or having to clean it. This using gas checked bullets in an M1 Garand, gas checked bullets in an SKS, and plain base non gas checked bullets in an M1 Carbine.

    All on the above are sized at .310 and lubed with my own lube, have yet to experience problems and have yet to see the need to clean the gas piston or tube. And yes, I'm very familiar with the cast bollit site.
     
  5. grubbylabs

    grubbylabs Member

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    They are usually installed during sizing. They require a bullet that is cast to receive a gas check and then when sizing the gas check is placed on the base of the bullet and run through the die.

    I have been playing with cast in my AR and so far I do not have any leading or lubing problems. I have accuracy problems. They are man size accurate but not what I am used to in a rifle. Of course I have only done one load testing and tested with one powder. So I still have a lot of work to do before I can say they are not accurate.
     
  6. jcwit

    jcwit Member

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    Just guessing, but I think it might be because of the fairly fast twist of the AR.
     
  7. grubbylabs

    grubbylabs Member

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    It could be, but I think that I will get it close enough for a plinking load. So far I am just happy that I don't have leading issues.
     
  8. billj888

    billj888 Member

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    I still don't know how to install a gas check. Does it require a separate die or do you hold it under the bullet when you seat it?
     
  9. Muddydogs

    Muddydogs Member

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    To install gas checks you need a lube sizer press with a sizer die and top punch or a Lee push through die that can be used in a single stage press. If you are asking this question I assume you are looking at buying bullets which should have a gas check on them if not then they probably don't have a gas check shank on the end of the bullet which you need for gas checks unless of course you intend to put plain base checks on a non gas check shank bullets. Like stated in the other post go visit cast boolits.com and start reading about using lead projectiles.
     
  10. jcwit

    jcwit Member

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    Being as you are talking cast bullets. You will need a mould that casts bullets for gas checks. You should also have a sizer, these are made by Lyman, RCBS and others. You may be able to install gas checks when you size the bullets, however I've had better luck using a gas check installer as the one I linked to earlier.

    Really I think you need to acquire one on the Lyman Cast Bullet manuals that explains the procedure much better than can be done on the internet.

    At the least google Lyman and take a look at the sizing presses and accessories available.
     
  11. grubbylabs

    grubbylabs Member

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    The key is having the correct components.

    If a bullet is not designed for a gas check its really not worth using one. If you are going to buy lead bullets they should come with a gas check if they are meant to have one. Other wise buy your gas checks and a Lee sizing die. Its the cheapest and easiest way to go if you are not already set up.

    The Lee system has a stem that goes into the ram on your single stage where you would normally put a shell holder, the die screws in like any other die. Most put the gas check on the bullet by hand or by placing it on the ram and then putting the bullet on top of the check. Either way is fine, most gas checks will kind of snap on by hand any ways. The bullet and check are then pushed through the sizing die and the process crimps the die in place.

    I hope that helps.
     
  12. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    The Lee sizer dies seat a check straighter than lubrisizers. They're only 20 dollars. You put the gas check on the base of the bullet, then put the bullet nose up on the press. Push nose-first through the sizer.

    I've done it. It can work in the end, but this isn't the right way to do it. The gas check is oversize. If you seat it into the case, unsized, it will stretch open the neck. The bullet will be held very loosely. It can even fall out, if you unchamber the round (but at least the powder doesn't fall out, cuz the gas check is still in there, tight). And the oversize neck can make the cartridge hard to even fully chamber, in the first place. You obviously shouldn't try this with a semiauto or in a load where the base of the bullet seats past the shoulder.

    +1. I've never seen plain base cast rifle bullets for sale, at all, other than for the slower velocity calibers lik 45-70 and black powder stuff. And the ones made for checks already have the checks installed. Doesn't mean they aren't out there, but it does make me wonder where you're getting them. On top of that, I've never seen GC'd cast rifle bullets significantly cheaper than jacketed to begin with. Well, only at one place, and it's a one-man operation that only sells bullets every other Saturday morning for an hour. AFAIK, if you want to shoot cast rifle bullets to save money, you have to be pretty lucky to find a supply of them, or cast them yourself.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
  13. dragon813gt

    dragon813gt Member

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    So I guess none of the results from a google search of "how to install gas checks" was acceptable? Two videos are the first hits followed by a vast list of threads at Cast Boolits. And then there is the article from the LASC website. Please use Google(or your search provider of choice) first before posting.


    Brought to you by TapaTalk
     
  14. stubbicatt

    stubbicatt Member

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    Why? Who are you to tell this man what he ought, and ought not be posting? He came here looking for advice and assistance. He can ask questions of the forum if he wants. If you don't have anything to offer, that's ok too. :)
     
  15. jcwit

    jcwit Member

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    So just who's the policeman policing the policeman? LOL

    Google does give loads of info, try it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    I still say, buy the manual.
     
  16. GT1

    GT1 Member

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    Forget the RCBS/Lyman lubrisizers, way too expensive for dabbling into installing a few checks for one caliber. Unless you are planning on casting for everything you shoot and going at a somewhat high volume.

    Just get the Lee push through sizer, it installs gas checks. It is cheap, it works.
     
  17. jcwit

    jcwit Member

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    Might take a look at used Lyman/RCBS lube sizers. I have 2, paid $15 bucks for one & $20 for the other. Both had the sizing dies I needed. And you get much better results lubing with one than using the tumble lube. IMO of course
     
  18. dogrunner

    dogrunner Member

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    And if you want full powered cast bullets check out the paper patching section on the castboolit site.

    I have personally ran over 2700 with my Garand with Lyman's 311041.....paper patched......with no leading and reasonable accuracy. And you avoid the gas check entirely.
     
  19. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    LOL. Be careful what you wish for.

    Think about it. No more Hi Point love-hate threads. No more semiannual "40SW, answer to a question nobody asked?" threads. No more "Carrying reloads?", "Plastic vs metal?", "Do you like Glock but hate Glock fanbois?" threads. C'mon. No more caliber wars!? Some of these forums would be reduced to nothing without the dead horses. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
  20. blarby

    blarby Member

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    Speaking of love hate threads....

    I still stand by a properly used lubrisizer with a check seat puts checks on better than the lee.

    Either way ya do it, OP- even the lee is better than trying to install the check in a cartridge.

    Also to the OP : if finding .308 FMJ is real hard for you, following the sig line..... would not hurt you.
     
  21. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    I prefer the Lee way, theoretically. In practice, all my Lee-installed gas checks are straight, and I don't see how they could be any straighter. But I'm sure lubesizers also work just fine.

    Now, my reasoning could be total crap. But here it is.

    With a lubesizer, the bullet goes in base first. As the oversize check is first to enter the narrowed part of the die, there's no guarantee it doesn't tip as it enters. Imagine trying to push a quarter into a tube that is slightly smaller in diameter than the quarter. It will want to tip and go through sideways. That's the easiest path. The gas check has the same problem, and it's supported only from behind, by the base of the bullet. The gas check could potentially tilt away from the bullet on one side while it is being forced thru the sizer. Then when you mash the bullet all the way to the bottom, it gets partially straightened out when it finally hits the flat referencing surface of the bottom of the die. But it's already been sized by that point.

    And even if this doesn't occur in practice, you should still preferably have the check on there squarely, BEFORE you put it in the lubesizer.

    With the Lee die, the gas check is smashed between the flat seating stem and the base of the bullet. It's self-squaring. The check is supported front and back. Since the check reaches the sizing die last, it's going to be held nice and flat and concentric before and during the sizing process. It's being sandwiched between the bullet and seating stem by maybe a couple of dozen PSI throughout. So throw it on there any which way, and watch perfect checks come out the other end.

    I know that you've had some bad experiences with the Lee sizers, and I wonder. Maybe you were installing checks on bullets that were already sized? The force of the bullet sizing is part of the self-squaring process.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013
  22. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Billj888 Buy bullets here- http://montanabulletworks.com/308_Rifle.html [​IMG] In excess of 2200fps NOT possible, with good accuracy. IMO. To load these, buy a Lyman "M" die. This die opens the case mouth so lead is not shaved from the bullets on seating. Normal bullet diameter is .310"
     
  23. blarby

    blarby Member

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    FWIW- Montana and I both use the same Black bas Blue Angel Lube on their bullets- I've used it up to, but not over, 2500 FPS with reasonable accuracy.

    This ain't palma, but these are cast bullets.

    It makes a fantastic pistol bulet lube, too.
     
  24. Ken70

    Ken70 Member

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    Lee makes a Universal Case Expanding Die, it will flare the case so cast lead bullets aren't shaved. 22 to .45 and everything between. Of course it's half the price of the other expander dies.:)
     
  25. bayjoe

    bayjoe Member

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    I use a Lee 170-309 Flat nose gas check bullet. It drops at 175 plus or minus a grain. I water drop when I cast, let them age for a month or so and the powder coat. Push 308 to 2400 fps with no problem.
    Takes a day to cast 1100 or 1200 and another half day or so to powder coat.Works like a charm.
     
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