Interest in shells that fire airsoft BBs?

[LS240]

This is pretty out on a limb but who else wants to see real 12G shells that fire airsoft BBs? I should make it clear I'm not a manufacturer or affiliated with any and have not the means to be bring these to market, so this is purely speculative.

What I'm envisioning is a standard 12G shell(with unique coloration and pattern to easily differentiate from lethal shells) with a standard shot cup, filled with .2 gram 6mm plastic BBs(standard airsoft ammo), and loaded with a very low powder charge to keep the velocities well below lethal, in the 300-400fps range. As an airsofter, I can assure you such velocities with these BBs are incredibly safe(always use eye protection though!) as I've been shot more times than I care to count including many times with airsoft guns firing over 400fps and while it stings a bit, it doesn't even come close to penetrating skin or causing serious harm.

The uses for these shells are numerous and obvious. They could be used for playing airsoft(assuming you could find other players willing to face a real shotgun AND YOU KNOW FOR A FACT THERE ARE NO REAL SHELLS ANYWHERE NEAR THE FIELD OF PLAY. That part's utterly important.), training for LEOs and military, non-lethal control of pests such as rabbits and the like, and even practice with your shotgun in your own home, since these could be fired in your basement, garage, etc., without causing harm. Low power foam-rubber slugs would be dead simple as well. These shouldn't cost any more to manufacturer or reload than normal shells, perhaps even less considering the plastic ammo and less powder.

The question is, would anybody actually be interested? Would any of you guys and girls consider them for training and practice or even consider getting into airsoft just so you could use your shotguns in action against living opponents? I would love to have these available. Even if most people didn't like the idea of them, I'd still find a way to organize private games with trusted players just to use them in an airsoft match. And I think they'd be great for practice. Just make a trap to catch all the BBs so you don't have thousand of them on the floor, and fire away in your own house.

As for issues, there's the glaringly obvious issue of liability, which would require any members of a game using a real shotgun to be completely searched to ensure they haven't made a mistake and brought along real ammo. And even then many people simply wouldn't like the idea of a real firearm being pointed at them. And then there's legality. Would this even be legal to play with if you had consent from all players present? Of course these would be so low power they wouldn't even cycle autoloading shotguns so it would be pretty much confined to pump guns. I'm sure you guys can think of even more cons.

So what do you think, good idea, bad idea, and most importantly would you buy them?

I realize Madbull already has something similar to this on the market but they require refilling with gas and only hold 5 BBs, if I remember correctly.

Thanks for reading!
-Layne

 

[highorder]

Real guns are not to be played with.

Even Simunitions, in a controlled environment, require great care and training.

 

[LS240]

Of course. I don't even think I would play with people I didn't know I could trust. I understand most wouldn't even be as open to it as I am.

What about making the shells slightly off-standard size, requiring a custom chambered barrel that wouldn't chamber standard shells? This would ensure no accidental shootings and barrel changes only take a few moments on an 870 for instance so it's not a huge inconvenience. Would this be possible?

 

[highorder]

What about making the shells slightly off-standard size, requiring a custom chambered barrel that wouldn't chamber standard shells? This would ensure no accidental shootings and barrel changes only take a few moments on an 870 for instance. Would this be possible?

It's possible, but you just removed the main selling point of the idea. If you need a custom barrel to fire these shells, the cost just went from zero to hundreds of dollars.

Not to mention your shell would have to be too long to chamber in most shotguns; in some backbored models, that isn't feasible.

 

[TomADC]

Years ago we'd load up a shell with baby powder instead of shot, used to get some funny looks from a new shooter when they fired it, Didn't smell all that bad

Soft air not for me..

 

[LS240]

It's possible, but you just removed the main selling point of the idea. If you need a custom barrel to fire these shells, the cost just went from zero to hundreds of dollars.

Not to mention your shell would have to be too long to chamber in most shotguns; in some backbored models, that isn't feasible.

I was thinking more a smaller diameter for these shells, not longer length. This would mean the custom-chambered barrel wouldn't fit standard shells but would allow normal feeding function of the gun itself.

It does take away the plug n' play aspect of the shells but would prevent accidents and a barrel shouldn't cost too much. This of course is assuming anyone wanted to use them for gaming purposes. Seems opinion so far is against that, so if it's just for practice, there's no need to worry about getting them confused.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

For playing airsoft (and this is coming from a fellow airsoft player) the risk/liability is just far too great. I can see this being handy for at home target practice/weapon familiarity training, but theres no way i think you could ever take the risk of using one to play airsoft with.

 

[eldon519]

I think the idea is terribly dangerous, and I wouldn't personally play, but to further your idea, you could probably also make .25ACP rounds although I don't know if that would have any benefit over a regular airsoft.

I think one of the problems you might run into by trying to use off-size smaller shells in a normal shotgun is that they probably wouldn't work in the magazine either unless you had some sort of insert, replacement spring, and follower.

 

[Bud Tugly]

I could see using them for chasing squirrels, chipmunks, grackles, and raccoons from our bird feeders since my wife won't let me kill them. It'd be great if the noise and sting would keep them away without being lethal. Might even be able to set up a little back-yard skeet field tossing Ritz crackers or something.

Probably still be illegal to shoot in town, though.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Whatever kind of shot is in them, shooting even a plastic shot filled shell is still discharging a firearm. Lots of legal trouble for doing that in town. Also, consider another legal ramification - you pointed a firearm at somebody and shot them. That could easily be construed as attempted murder in some jurisdictions.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Layne,

What it seems to me you have in mind is something called Force on Force training (aka FoF). It's an idea that has been around for some years now, dating at least back to the founding of the company known as SIMUNITION ( http://www.simunition.com/index_en.php ), back to the late 1980s or thereabouts. These conversions are often referred to as Sims for short.

The conversion systems use paint marking rounds, fired out of the training equivalents of issue firearms for the military and law enforcement. There are Sims conversions for pump shotguns already- http://www.simunition.com/conversion_kits/shotguns_en.php . These systems are set up to do what I think you're getting at with this thread.

FoF training is a potentially dangerous thing. I've had several training sessions that involved FoF, both with Sims guns and with a different brand of marking round that is fired from a standard weapon. On each occasion, the training scenario was set up in a tightly controlled environment that allowed no access whatsoever to any nonparticipant in the exercise. Participants in the exercise were told to strip off all live weapons, live ammo, live blades etc, and were patted down twice and wanded before going into the training area. This level of caution might seem paranoid to some.

It's not.

Take a look at a book titled Training At The Speed Of Life, from http://www.armiger.net/ . One of the chapters is titled "In Memory Of Those Who Have Fallen." The information there comes from the Officer Down Memorial Page at www.ODMP.com . In my copy of the book, an older edition, there are 36 names listed in the memorial section, all of officers who died in firearms related training accidents, many of which were scenario based.

Far too many people- people who were supposed to be professionals training with other professionals- have been killed in FoF training for the idea to be taken lightly in any way. It is a serious subject, and potentially lethal if not treated with the gravity it deserves.

Setting up any sort of 'training round' with the idea it is to be fired out of an unmodified shotgun is IMHO a genuinely bad idea, unless the people who are going to use it are properly trained and extremely safety conscious, and the distribution of that training ammunition is tightly controlled. The potential for tragedy in any other sort of situation is far too high otherwise. And the liability aspects of such a thing are sufficient to keep lawyers awake nights.

fwiw,

lpl

 

[LS240]

Thanks for the feedback everybody! I understand and agree with all of the concerns. Maybe some time in the future I'll custom load some just for testing, but it's obvious these could never sell and would probably be a bad idea to do so.

Thanks again.
-Layne

 

[Beelzy]

This takes me back.....to the days of Rock Salt loads.

 

[AKElroy]

For playing airsoft (and this is coming from a fellow airsoft player) the risk/liability is just far too great. I can see this being handy for at home target practice/weapon familiarity training, but theres no way I think you could ever take the risk of using one to play airsoft with.

Agreed. Especially with shotguns, their is just too much ammo around that could be easily confused. During dove season, I have a truck FULL of ammo, my garage has ice-chests full of it. Different types, different colors, lots of it around. This much familiarity can breed disaster. I shoot my shotguns more than anything else, and I practice a lot of muzzle discipline when hunting. I cannot imagine anything good coming from doing for fun (actually pointing a 12 gage at someone and pulling the trigger) something that has become second nature to NOT DO.

 

[tkopp]

Isn't the plastic wad a fairly dangerous object at close range anyhow?

 

[zhyla]

You could make a necked down cartridge and have a replacement barrel with a matching necked down chamber. IF you made the barrel orange I might be ok with this idea. Ideally it would be fabricated such that the pressure of a real round would blow the barrel apart.

Seems like there are cheaper, easier ways to simulate shotgun blasts.