interesting nola tidbit

[XavierBreath]

I blogged on this last night.

My response:
"This is news? Click here. Obviously, what the author of this article ignores in the last few paragraphs is that honest gun owners do not give guns to criminals, rather, criminals steal them. The ATF's "time to crime" ratio simply shows there are a lot of dangerous criminals on the loose and stealing guns in New Orleans. Perhaps honest people should buy guns to protect themselves there. The criminals, afterall, will use knives to ply their trade if guns magically disappear. Somehow, I don't think guns will magically disappear. They may legally disappear for honest, law abiding citizens, but guns will never evaporate.

Furthermore, often, crimes in which the criminal was deterred by the sudden realization his intended victim was armed with a gun and might kill him in self defense, are far higher than those reported. Only "two defensive killings of criminals by civilians" does not mean that many many criminals aborted their crime to go on to find another unarmed victim. The murder rate in New Orleans, 162 in 2006 and 37 so far this year, as stated by Ms. Foster, aptly demonstrates that criminals will find victims. I wonder if Ms. Foster knows how many of those 199 dead people had a gun? I would wager none of them did.

Ms. Foster needs to release her anti-gun bias. People are not as stupid as she apparently believes them to be. I think it's time for another "Chief Warren Riley Kiss My Ass Shotgun" in salute of Ms. Foster."

I merged the threads and closed another one containing only my post. I'm sorry for any confusion.

 

[xd9fan]

Time to crime? I've got a High Standard .22 that was made in 1947, it'll be 60 this year.
To average 5 years to crime with another gun, its time to crime would have to be negative 50 years.

My guns are lazy too....hmmm......I wonder why?...batf

 

[FieroCDSP]

I caught a shortened version in the Akron Beacon Journal today. I find it funny they say "despite the number of CCW's, there have only been two defensive shootings so far"...Okay...Meaning that's two fewer bad guys off the street, and that civilians are unexpectedly more capable than previously thought when it comes to responsibility. Does anyone have a recent stat on how many police involved shootings of criminals in NO? Any bets on whether it's less than two?

 

[Mr.V.]

Obviously, what the author of this article ignores in the last few paragraphs is that honest gun owners do not give guns to criminals, rather, criminals steal them. The ATF's "time to crime" ratio simply shows there are a lot of dangerous criminals on the loose and stealing guns in New Orleans.

I have to disagree. I think we gunnies are picking a bad fight trying to deny that straw-purchases likely get more guns in criminals' hands than theft.

Even the NRA acknowledges the stat that most criminals don't expect to steal their gun if/when released, but rather obtain it from an alternate source (friend / illegal seller / etc)
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?ID=117
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

Most crime guns are not reported stolen prior to their use. Even if only 1 out of every 3 people reported their gun stolen, that would only push to 30% the number of crime guns obtained by theft from either FFLs or private-citizens.

It jives with freemarket economics too. The easiest way of obtaining a gun in this country is not to smuggle them over the Mexican border next to cocaine sacs. Sure some of this occurs, but criminals pick the easiest route. So if guns are legal to sell and fairly plentiful, naturally criminals will abuse the system, if that's easiest. Of course, if one were to ban them, or make life so incredibly difficult to purchase a gun, then smuggling would become the #1 way (probably raising the street price of the gun $100, creating yet another criminal enterprise, and leaving a law-abiding citizen defenseless ...).

So in conclusion, yeah straw purchases / corrupt FFLs may make up the majority of crime guns NOW, but banning sales will only force criminals to rob another $100 from you to pay for the gun that they're pointing at your disarmed face.

 

[XavierBreath]

Mr. V, from your article, emphasis mine.

The average gun-wielding criminal studied expected to have no difficulty in obtaining a gun within a day after release from prison. Fifty percent expected to unlawfully purchase a gun through unregulated channels; 25% anticipated borrowing a gun, and only one-eighth expected to steal their guns. The choices of where to obtain a handgun, among those categorized as handgun abusers, ranged downward from friends, to the street, to fences, the blackmarket and their drug dealers. Licensed gun dealers do not figure high in the plans of the felons surveyed. And pawnbrokers accounted for only 6% of the mentions of possible sources for guns. That low number supports the findings of BATF studies showing that pawnshops were not disproportionately used by criminals who illegally obtained firearms through licensed dealers.

Theft is certainly a problem, but other unregulated acquisition is even more popular with felons. Criminals are thieves, however, and guns are clearly among the items stolen, mostly to sell rather than for personal use. The criminals surveyed reported committing a great number of thefts, with a large percentage stealing guns from regulated sources. Among those who reported stealing a gun (40% of the total sample), 37% stole from stores, 15% from a policeman, 16% from a truck shipment, and 8% from a manufacturer.

Well-secured and well-regulated sources such as stores, shippers, manufacturers and even police, may represent a substantial percentage of the guns stolen, indicating that theft from individuals may have been exaggerated as a problem in the illegal commerce in firearms as anti-gunners frequently charge. These data might suggest that a reasonable policy conclusion would be to make theft of a firearm, especially more than one, a felony regardless of the value of the gun or guns stolen.

A straw purchase is a situation in which a buyer uses an intermediary, a "straw purchaser" through which to acquire one or more firearms from a licensed firearms dealer. The purpose is to hide the identity of the true purchaser or ultimate possessor of the firearm.
Would a FFL be considered a regulated channel? Last I checked, the BATF regulated FFLs pretty regularly. I think the other bold text pretty much speaks for itself. Also, consider that what an incarcerated criminal expects to do on release, while still in prison, and what he actually does once released are not the same. An incarcerated criminal's expectations can hardly be called conclusive evidence.

The PBS article, though, does state:

In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.

Mr. Wachtel is a single ATF agent who participated in a public TV broadcast about the "Ring of Fire" guns. He is stating an opinion. Let's see numbers. When it comes to a study with numbers, "one of the most common" somehow becomes "many". Why is that? What are the other "most common" methods? Again, lets see numbers.

You will note that this study was done in Southern California, not Southern Louisiana. Do I think that makes a difference? Knowing the licensed gun dealers that I do, at this point, I think it does make a difference in South Louisiana, heck, even in North Louisiana it matters. Dealers here are just not afraid of refusing to sell.

The PBS program, Hot Guns, first aired on June 3, 1997. It was about cheap guns in California. It can hardly be used as a source of information concerning post-Katrina New Orleans.

In contrast, I'll cite the "Don't Lie for the Other Guy" program.

Reports by ATF and the Department of Justice indicate that criminals illegally obtain guns from a variety of sources, including stealing them and getting them from friends and family members. Some firearms used in urban centers were originally sold at retail in many other states and illegally trafficked to criminals in those urban areas.

The US Department of Justice:--

Among state prison inmates with a prior adult criminal record who possessed handguns, 23 percent said they bought the weapon from a retail store.

Again, The US Department of Justice:

According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -
1. a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
2. a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
3. family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
During the offense that brought them to prison, 15% of State inmates and 13% of Federal inmates carried a handgun, and about 2%, a military-style semiautomatic gun.

Again, these are national statistics, not post-Katrina New Orleans numbers. No real statistics have been crunched concerning post-Katrina New Orleans, yet. Still, they do not support your hypothesis, and they do not support Agent Wachtel's opinion.

MS-13, the Latin Kings and other, largely Latino and Asian gangs have appeared in post-Katrina NOLA. Along with the highly organized gang activity comes highly organized gun and drug trafficking. In addition, "legacy" criminals are returning to claim their piece of the New Orleans reconstruction pie. Local gangs have regrouped. Customers are again available for a lucrative drug and prostitution trade. NOLA is presently a complex crime picture of competing forces and a unique situation.

I am not saying that straw purchases are not a problem. I am saying that I believe straw purchases are not a prevalent means of criminals obtaining firearms in New Orleans.

 

[Art Eatman]

Mannlicher, did you overlook the lady's comment? ""I'm a marksman now. I know what I'm doing," she said." Could that mean she's had some training? Or even experience in shooting, in the past?

As for gasoline, maybe she owns a gas can, and is a member in good standing of the "StaBil is my friend" club. And if she's smart enough to this much advance planning, she might even figure out that when the storm is imminent, replenishment is best done before, not after.

, Art

 

[starboard]

From Kleck's own book summary:

Probably fewer than 2% of handguns and well under 1% of all
guns will ever be involved in a violent crime. Thus, the problem
of criminal gun violence is concentrated within a very small subset
of gun owners, indicating that gun control aimed at the general
population faces a serious needle-in-the-haystack problem.




The aforementioned article is in effect highly deceptive because they omit data such as this.

 

[MD_Willington]

Seattle

One good earthquake or a local Volcano pops its top and you'll see them scurry towards us here on the East side... Time to get some plans together to block the passage over the range...

 

[Flyboy]

So it's just inevitable that all guns sold find their way into criminal hands?
It was a good article with the exception of that biased paragraph.

In NOLA? Yeah, most of them end up stolen...by crooks on the public payroll.

 

[cloudcroft]

Frankly, most people in New Orleans don't care what the results are of the sorry SOBs they elected/relected (they did the same in DC with that criminal Marion Barry)...it's just to realize Nagin's grand vision: A "chocolate" city, as even HE stated. So most people there don't care if they elect crooked, corrupt, or incompetent politicians. It's not about character, integrity, honesty, morality or competence...it's about race.

It's that simple.

Regardless, new businesses, banks, construction companies and others should boycott New Orleans -- no loans, no rebuilding, nothing -- and see how long that sorry city can last.

I know I am sure glad to hear that hurricane seasons are only expected to get worse...part of Al Gore's Global Warming I suppose. Whatever, New Orleans may get flushed away yet...

-- John D.

 

[AStone]

I know I am sure glad to hear that hurricane seasons are only expected to get worse...part of Al Gore's Global Warming I suppose. Whatever, New Orleans may get flushed away yet...

I'm just going to walk away calmly, whistling softly, looking at flowers, like I didn't read that.

Nope. Ain't gonna touch it.

Not enough money in the universe or beautiful women on the left coast
to make me stick my nose in this discussion.

I'm just walking away...