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Interesting tidbit from Ammoland on Glock

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by hso, Aug 3, 2018.

  1. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Grip angle is something that I approach fanaticism about and I found this piece from Ammoland to be interesting.

    https://www.ammoland.com/2018/08/5-...0_6f6fac3eaa-72ee33efe5-7170233#axzz5N77tP39w


    The infamous Glock grip angle that many hate to love and love to hate was something that Gaston felt was an extremely important element of the pistol's design. In order to more fully understand the thought process behind the grip angle that Gaston chose, one has to understand that military doctrine of the time was to shoot a pistol with one hand, body bladed to the target.

    Gaston invited several guests to join him at his vacation home in Velden, Austria and asked those guests several questions about what they wanted from a military sidearm. One of the design elements that Gaston intended to figure out was what angle the grip should be.

    Grip-Angle-600x450.jpg
    The Glock Grip Angle is measured as shown.
    He passed mockups of pistols made from pieces of wood nailed together around and asked his guests to aim at something with both their eyes open, as well as their eyes closed. The thought process was that aiming the new sidearm should be instinctual and shouldn't take much effort.

    The consensus among his guests was that a grip angle of 22-degrees was ideal, but Gaston later reduced the angle slightly somewhere in between 20 to 21 degrees.
     
  2. George P

    George P Member

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    How does that compare to others like the 1911, the S&W 2.0, etc.? That would make an interesting chart for folks looking to buy another handgun, especially if they have one they feel really fits them well. Might help cut down the search for their next gun.
     
  3. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    1911 is about 18 degrees.
     
  4. climbnjump

    climbnjump Member

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  5. HB

    HB Member

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    They must lock their wrist down like a european free pistol... a glock points at the ceiling for me
     
  6. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    Used to for me too until I started shooting them, then I realized they are the best pointers for me.

    Even better than my 1911s, but not by much.
     
  7. bannockburn

    bannockburn Member

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    hso

    Interesting insight into how the Glock 17's grip angle came about. Thanks for sharing.
     
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  8. JN01

    JN01 Member

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    For you,the Ruger Mk series must point behind you then. :)
     
  9. tipoc

    tipoc Member

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    This comes from the book by Paul Barrett "Glock: America's Pistol". The book should be read it's very interesting reading.
     
  10. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

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    It's interesting he used blocks of wood nailed together. A Glock to me feels like a 2x4.
     
  11. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    Now I have this urge to go find out what the grip angle on the Nambu is.

    Interestingly, there's a difference in angle between the .45acp Luger and the 9mm versions; only about 2-3º or so, but enough to notice.
     
  12. Kano383

    Kano383 Member

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    The angle that counts, ergonomically, is that of the backstrap...

    Then, the position at which your index finger finds itself in relation to the trigger is important too. In Glocks, the index, when extended forward, rests on the side of the frame and must be twisted downwards to find the trigger.

    In the CZ75 and 1911, the index is more in line with the trigger, and these are guns that most people find comfortable to handle.

    Ergonomics are much more involved than a couple of lines drawn on a picture...
     
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  13. bassjam

    bassjam Member

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    That is an interesting bit about the Glock grip angle. I’m on that don’t care for the ergo’s of Glocks. A G23 was my first handgun but I never could shoot well with it. I replaced it with a 1911 and a Buckmark, both of which I can shoot much better. I do think there’s more to it than just the grip angle though, because I shot a Ruger Mark I pretty well too.
     
  14. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Wonder how many of that group spent their formitive shooting years with Lugers? I bet if he'd asked a bunch of US vets, he'd have got 18 degrees as an answer.
     
  15. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Part of the problem with the Glock for many people is that the palm swell exaggerates that grip angle considerably. The other issue is that it's easier to compensate for a pistol which naturally points a tad low than slightly high in the same way it's easier to maintain fluid control of a car with understeer than oversteer; correcting upward for your front sight being low is easier to do without overcompensating than bringing the muzzle down when the target is covered.

    Personally, I find that the Glock points high while a 1911 grip with a flat MSH is low. The lower grip angle of the 1911 with a palm swell like the Glock is about right for natural pointing in my case, which is probably why I so like CZ and Beretta pattern guns, and the S&W 3rd gens. All my 1911s get an arched MSH (and thicker grips to better fill my hands).
     
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  16. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    I bet you would be corewct.
     
  17. JN01

    JN01 Member

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    Funny, I find that Glocks and 1911s with arched MSHs point right on for me, but my S&W 5903 points a bit low. Just goes to show that it is not merely grip angle, but also other elements that make "ergonomics" so personal and different from person to person.
     
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  18. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Does your 5903 have straight or arched grip panels? The 3rd gens with straight panels point low for me as well.
     
  19. beeenbag
    • Contributing Member

    beeenbag Member

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    I'm with you on this, I like the arched mainspring housing on the 1911 and own a 3913 that probably looks like I'm holding it like rick grimes holds his python, (pointed towards the ground) when I bring it up.
     
  20. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    We shouldn't imagine that Gaston was the first to consider this. It was a topic of substantial interest when the US transitioned from revolvers like the 1873 Colt to the M1911, and has been debated for over 100 years.

    In their book that focuses on the 1911, Fairbairn and Sykes mention the need to train oneself to cock their wrist up to make the 1911 point properly. At the time, much of their audience in the law enforcement community were accustomed to the wrist-down grip of a revolver. The Glock's grip angle is similar to the Luger and most traditional revolvers. One points them as they would point their finger. If you try pointing your finger with the wrist cocked up as though you were holding a 1911, it is awkward indeed. Nevertheless, Fairbairn and Sykes promoted the 1911 in spite of it lacking the natural pointing grip angle that was essential to one of their primary methods, point shooting. I think they simply lacked a better alternative in the 1920's. It seems reasonable that Fairbairn and Sykes would have liked the Glock considering the totality of the doctrine they put forth in their book Shooting to Live, in spite of their protege Applegate's limited concession to as much. I think Applegate understood that the Glock's sin wasn't the grip angle, but that it was un-American. Even if it's made by Ruger and called the "American," it's not. Doubtful that F&S would care as much, but it also stands to reason that if they were still around, they might very well change their minds on a variety of issues considerably from what they were thinking nearly 100 years ago. Regardless, it's quite obvious they didn't consider the grip angle of the 1911 something that had to be changed (like the safety they insisted be pinned), and were obviously quite content that one could adapt their pointing technique even with the scant training regimen their recruits were afforded in those days. With the volume of ammo available to the enthusiast of even the most modest means in present-day US, there doesn't seem to be a compelling argument that one couldn't learn to shoot a gun of whatever grip angle it came with.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
  21. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    "Lock" is the word. If the grip angle is such that your wrist is all the way down, there is less freedom of movement to wobble in elevation. More valuable if you are shooting onehanded.
    I figure the "slant grip" High Standards gave way to the military grip because everybody shoots the 1911 in bigbore and most do in centerfire, so they had to learn its neutral angle anyhow.
     
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  22. JN01

    JN01 Member

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    Mine is curved, the straight panels point even lower for me.
     
  23. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    Practically does for me.

    I was once challenged with the point your arm out with your eyes closed thing. A Glock points up and a 1911 points flat for me. This was before I started shooting pistols so I did not have muscle memory. Neither a Glock or 1911 angle bothers me, but I prefer the 1911 angle.
     
  24. kozak6

    kozak6 Member

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    I love a sharp grip angle. Feels like Bill Ruger made the MK series just for me. I like the look of Steyr's plastic fantastics, but it's a little tricky to find and rent one.

    The Glock grip angle is a red herring. It's fine.

    The real problem (for me) is the hump on the base of the backstrap. And also that it's a square edged slab. But mostly the hump.
     
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  25. HPCadm17

    HPCadm17 Member

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    I find the grip angle of most full-sized Glocks to be just about perfect for me. The smaller Glocks, not so much. I figured it has less to do with grip angle, and more to do with how far down the "hump" begins on the backstrap. I shoot my G23 just fine, but with the G22 the "hump" is lower and, for me, feels more natural.
     
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