Intermediate Carbine at Tac-Pro Shooting Center AAR (now with pics)

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Just finished a three-day carbine course and thought I would jot down some thoughts/experiences. First, it was a great class. We had some competent shooters and great guys who had the basics down and had most of their gear issues worked out and it allowed us to move a little faster than usual. The class had five people with two instructors, so we all got excellent personal attention as well.

The first day was very similar to the first day of Primary Carbine. We listened to a very informative and interesting lecture that reflected some recent information for the morning and broke for lunch. The afternoon was spent zeroing rifles and confirming the standoff/holdover for close in shooting. We finally finished up with a little positional shooting for about 150-200rds the first day.

The second day was the heavy shooting day. All of the ranges were under 30yds. We worked primarily on shooting and moving and movement as teams. I didn't fully clean the rifle after the first day; but did wipe down the bolt carrier group and re-oil it first thing in the morning. I fired 720 rounds of Guatemalan 55gr and Remington UMC 55gr (mostly unsuppressed but some suppressed as well) between the morning cleaning and the end of the day. Although it was starting to get sludgy towards the end of the day, I decided not to add lube and it continued to run without a problem.

Day 2 was a good test on weapons and gear and a few problems cropped up. I had one stoppage all day - one of my pre-92 black follower mags didn't feed a round and I dropped the hammer on an empty chamber mid-mag. I transitioned to pistol and pulled the trigger on a second empty chamber (no round chambered to start with :eek:). I then moved to cover and sorted out both weapons with no further problems. We had a 9mm AR with three stoppages due to a new plastic mag. One shooter was running a used Comp M2 Aimpoint. As he was shooting, the 4MOA dot would blink on and off with the recoil. The shooter centered the target in the blank 30mm objective and continued to make good hits though. We tightened everything on the Aimpoint and were unable to get it to duplicate the problem again.

The final problem was a shooter with a 5.56mm chambered, chrome-lined Bushmaster M4 barrel. He had purchased some of the polymer Wolf to save money. The Wolf ran fine until the rifle got hot (though accuracy was poor with 6" groups at 100 from a stable position). However, when the rifle got hot it was stuck case after stuck case. Opening the rifle to inspect it, chunks of fouling fell out that were so big that initially we thought a part had broken. Instead, it was just a plasticized carbon gunk that was solid as a rock. The shooter had cleaned the rifle twice already that morning; but cleaned the chamber aggressively and got it very clean. We started again and the rifle was down with stuck cases within 100 rounds.

I've been in several classes where Wolf worked OK in similar barrels. About the only thing different here was the rate of fire. We had the rifles much hotter and it seemed to affect function with the Wolf. The same rifle ran fine with brass cased ammo.

The final day was a combination of lecture, Q&A, vehicle work and jungle runs. I started this day with a nice clean rifle. Sights with magnification really shined on the jungle run as they were able to pick out targets at a greater distance and allow good hits. The vehicle and jungle run shooting took place out in the soft sand and trees. Sand got all over the rifles - especially those with muzzle brakes since they kicked up a cloud of dust with every shot. All the ARs were covered in sand and movement was a little extra effort.

Despite the dirt, there were no stoppages from any of the rifles. Excluding the Wolf rifle, out of the eight rifles for the four other shooters, we had a total of 4 stoppages out of about 4250 rounds total (my magazine related stoppage, and the 3 mag-related stoppages on the 9mm).

Gear report: The rifle has gotten heavier since the Primary class and I felt it by the end of the third day where the Specter MOUT sling was cutting into my shoulder. I used the same chest rig; but with a different holster, dump pouch, AR mag pouch, and GP pouch. The new rig was flatter and more compact; but held 7 AR mags, two pistol mags and a pistol. It worked out very well for this class. Everyone else ran various belt rigs and seemed happy with them.

I'm a little tired right now, so feel free to ask a question if I missed some detail you want to know.
 
The final problem was a shooter with a 5.56mm chambered, chrome-lined Bushmaster M4 barrel. He had purchased some of the polymer Wolf to save money. The Wolf ran fine until the rifle got hot (though accuracy was poor with 6" groups at 100 from a stable position). However, when the rifle got hot it was stuck case after stuck case. Opening the rifle to inspect it, chunks of fouling fell out that were so big that initially we thought a part had broken. Instead, it was just a plasticized carbon gunk that was solid as a rock. The shooter had cleaned the rifle twice already that morning; but cleaned the chamber aggressively and got it very clean. We started again and the rifle was down with stuck cases within 100 rounds.

This mirrors what I have seen from this ammo. Wolf polymer coated ammo will not run if you get your rifle hot. It melts and cools and sticks cases in the chamber leading to frequent failures to extract.

I know all ammo is terribly expensive right now but students should try to buy the best ammo they can afford for training. If you go cheap you may spend more time trying to fix your gun than learning how to use it.
 
I'd agree that Wolf Poly is a bad idea for training. The instructor at Tac-Pro said that even AKs had choked on it in his experience.

On another note, I was carrying a pistol on my chest rig, despite the fact that I do 99% of my training and carrying on the belt from a Versa-Max 2. Luckily for me I was carrying both pistols because I repeatedly drew my CCW piece instead of the pistol on the chest rig.

I was also plagued by bad magazine karma - mags falling out because they weren't seated, mags loaded to 30 instead of 28, mags not pushing rounds up in time. The good news is I got to make all of my stupid mistakes in training and correct them.
 
Tac-Pro Shooting Center had a photographer present to take pictures for their websitecourse description. They were kind enough to allow me to use a few of the photos to illustrate some of the lessons I learned there.

First, let me issue a few qualifiers. The course of fire you see in the pictures was not just randomly set up. The poppers are rated to handle intermediate caliber rifle fire like 5.56x45 or 7.62x39 (and frangible .308). The targets and distances have been set up by an exprienced professional instructor and although you can only see one instructor in the frame, there are actually two instructors and a photographer watching my every step. Finally, the range facilities sit on 550 acres and there is ample safety area built into the scenario.

Here are a few of the lessons I learned during the Intermediate Carbine course. The first one has to do with realistic distances and sightlines when fighting with a rifle. In the picture below, the trail is approximately 300yds long and there were eight targets on it. See how many you can identify from my initial starting point (the photos are slightly magnified for better view)

IC_JR1.jpg


Even though you can easily make out three targets from the initial point, you don't have to move too far off the trail to be virtually invisible due to brush and intervening terrain. This next picture doesn't really illustrate anything but because the photographer managed to catch the impact of the bullet on the popper and the resulting cloud of paint dust, I threw it in anyway:

IC_JR2.jpg


One advantage that quickly became very clear is that shooters with magnified or variable optics were able to acquire targets at greater distances. However, even with magnified optics, terrain limited the practical ranges. From the photographer's viewpoint, you have a clear line of sight to two targets; but even with my 3.5x ACOG I could only see one because I was hugging the left side of the trail and was blocked by brush.

Target up:
IC_JR3.jpg


Target down:
IC_JR4.jpg


Did you see the second target? Me neither... here is where I spotted and engaged it. This was probably the longest shot I took all day despite magnified optics. It was around 80 yards.

IC_JR5.jpg


Photos courtesy of Tac-Pro Shooting Center. Because I just chose the few photos that illustrated the sightline point well, you don't get a very good sense of the "run" portion of the Jungle Run; but there is definitely a lot more time stress and movement than these photos indicate. You are essentially trying to move through the scenario as fast as you can manage while at the same time not missing any targets, forgetting any of what you have been taught etc.

Another real good lesson learned here was magazine retention. That sand on the trail is not only well mixed with cattle chips, it is deep and soft. In addition to making movement not much fun, it throws up tiny dust storms from prone, gets all over the weapon, and if you drop a magazine in it you will have two immediate problems:

1. Finding the magazine again
2. Cleaning all the sand out of the magazine so it will work

The sand was real useful in teaching the value of retaining mags via a dump pouch, dumping them down your shirt or wedging them behind your chest rig. We didn't have any lost mags this time through; but we did have a few mags that stopped operating after being dropped in the sand.

On note related to sightlines, prone is a nice stable position that lets you take long range shots. Unless there is significant difference in elevation between you and the target, it can also serve to reduce your line of sight off the nicely trimmed range. Targets you can make out from kneeling or standing disappear entirely in prone.
 
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Good write up!

The pics are nice to. I passed up the Basic Carbine course that was just recently offered to hold out for a shotgun class hopefully later in the year. Money ane time are always problems. I was at Tac-Pro a couple of weeks ago and talked to Bill. His schedule is so busy with other things that he hasn't had the chance to schedule a shotgun class around those things yet. Did Tim take the pics? He was in my Advanced Defensive Pistol I just recently completed in December.

Flip
 
Yes, it was Tim taking the pictures. Did you catch his story on Primary Shotgun recently? Tim was trying to talk Bill into an Intermediate Shotgun class this summer when we were doing the carbine course, so you aren't the only one interested. I hear the Advanced Pistol class was exciting.
 
In the first picture there is the two ones that are in plain sight. Down the trail it looks like there are two more in good cover. Are those targets or just blurs in the picture?
 
"Did you catch his story on Primary Shotgun recently?"

I haven't. Is there a link to the article or what issue of what can I find it at?

Thanks, Flip.
 
nice write-up
appropriate too, as i was just doing a little internet research for my next few classes :) i'll have to check out their schedule.
 
In the first picture there is the two ones that are in plain sight. Down the trail it looks like there are two more in good cover. Are those targets or just blurs in the picture?

There are three that are immediately visible in that picture. Two stacked on top of each other on the left and one on the right. If I was over further to the left and back some, there might be one more visible off to the left and way down the trail.

The slight bend in the trail and the brush hide some, even if you had perfect vision.

I haven't. Is there a link to the article or what issue of what can I find it at?

It was in the May or June issue of SWAT... I forget which... whichever one came out in subscription in May and just hit the newsstands this month.

appropriate too, as i was just doing a little internet research for my next few classes i'll have to check out their schedule.

The pictures here are a bit on the mild side; but they have good class descriptions on thewir website with pictures. I think they even have some video.
 
I think Tim was also going to do a write up on the Advanced Pistol course that we took in Dec and submit it it to S.W.A.T. also. I really put some thought into taking a carbine class but, I feel my weakness really lies with the shotgun. Not to say I don't have anything to lean from Bill when it comes to carbines but after being an 11B for four years, I'm alot more comfortable with my AR than I am with my shotgun. If money and time wasn't an issue, I'd love take every class Bill offered.

Flip.
 
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The main point I wanted to convey was the practical limitations imposed by distance in a non-range environment. In that last picture, the range is only about 80 yds and the target is a white painted popper standing in the open; but it is still near invisible even in the picture (it is underneath the tree and behind the bush at about 1 o'clock from the downed popper in the foreground).

Even in the open areas where you could take 300-400yd shots, just acquiring a target in that brush is quite a challenge on its own.
 
Yes. That is Bill.

I was just playing around with my new cellphone and snapped some pics of my gear. Here is the gear I used in the Primary Carbine class:

gear1.jpg


Here is what I used in the Intermediate Carbine class. Generally you'll note that there is a lot less stuff hanging low off the chest rig now and what is there is much more compact:

gear3.jpg


As you can see, I used a SAW pouch in the Primary class as my GP/dump pouch. However, it only fit about four mags and after two mags, it started getting tough stuffing them in there. In addition, it could not be used as a GP pouch while I was using it as a dump pouch. I switched to an Emdom GP pouch, which has been great in every way so far.

On mag pouches, I was carrying 9 mags in a Blackhawk Triple AK pouch. The Triple AK pouch was actually suprisingly decent and did a good job of keeping stuff out of the loaded mags, while still allowing decent access times. However, I didn't care for three mags in a pocket. Too much bulk out front and too much weight. Also because I tried to sling it low so I could run more pouches above it, it didn't work out so well.

I changed to a six mag pouch from BDS Tactical (which is actually knockk-offs of John Wills original SOE gear pouches, though at the time I thought they were the successor to SOE). The BDS pouch is sewn a little tight. You really have to work to get mags in and out. As a result, I run Magpul Rangers on the front mag of every pocket. That makes it easier and faster. I like these because of the flatter profile and the PALS webbing that gives me the option to stack. I also moved them just a wee bit closer to centerline. No problems with prone yet; but you do notice it there.

I also added a single bungee mag pouch (I forget who made it; but it is very nice). The bungee mag pouch I use to either carry specialty ammo or as my "I really need a mag right now" pouch. I am still mixed on bungee mag pouches. When they work, they are lightning fast... when they don't, it gives a blooper reel quality screwup. I've talked about that before so I won't go into it too much. On the face of the single bungee mag pouch I have added a Maxpedition Rolly-Polly. This serves as my fold-away dump pouch and does a nice job of it. It actually holds more mags than the SAW pouch it replaced, though it is a bit worse about coughing up mags during movement if you don't secure the flap over the top.

Finally, I ditched the cobbled together Bladetech/SERPA plate attachment I had jury-rigged for the first class. Because it didn't secure the top of the holster to the chest rig, it meant most of the weight was above the attachment points and everything flopped around. Really fast draw and kept the pistol secured; but just didn't wear well and I didn't like seeing the pistol pointed forward with the muzzle dug into my abdomen as a result.

I switched it out for a Tactical Tailor holster. Nothing fancy about it, just good solid nylon. It retains the weapon well enough and has no floppage when mounted using five rows. However, the problem then is that the pistol is halfway to your armpit and the draw is awkward. I dropped it down until it was secured by just three rows; but then the top-heavy flopping thing popped back up. I ended up using a plastic wire tie to secure the top to the PALS and that seems to have solved the issue nicely.

Here is a little closer look at the new gear:
gear4.jpg
 
Thanks for the excellent review.

Does Mr Davison have any comments re chest rigs/vests/go bags? It's always good to have the opinion of a BTDT like him.

Dave Williams
 
Does Mr Davison have any comments re chest rigs/vests/go bags? It's always good to have the opinion of a BTDT like him.

Well the chest rig I have is one I bought off of him after he came back from overseas in early 2005. He had it set up differently than I did though. So he liked the chest rig for his particular uses. However, we didn't really get into a gear discussion beyomd the obvious "You need to try your gear out in the same environment you plan to use it in."

Gear-wise I was the only one using a chest rig. Everybody else was using belts with a plethora of mag pouches. About the only time it made a difference is when we were running team relays I was able to jump in and get twice the relays in because everyone else was loading mags.
 
Is the other one stock or just less custom?

The black one on the belt is a Wickmann job before he had all those problems with finishing work. The parkerized Hi-Power on the chest rig is one of the Israeli Hi-Powers that Don Williams did some work on for me.

Just curious - why did you take the class?

I try to take at least one formal firearms class a year for a variety of reasons. The main one is I just enjoy it and find it a good way to relieve stress. The second reason is I usually learn something new at almost any class. In this case, I made a lot of changes to the carbine (new barrel, new gas system, suppressor, new mount, new rear sight) since I last used it in a class and wanted to work off the rust on my own form as well as check out how those changes held up to some rougher use.

One thing I like about Bill is rather than criticize a particular gear choice you have made, he will simply make sure you encounter a scenario that demonstrates the shortcomings of that piece of gear and you can decide whether or not you can live with the tradeoff. He has a real good eye for what can go wrong and how to create that scenario, so one of his classes is usually a better test for gear than my own attempts to test rifles.
 
"he will simply make sure you encounter a scenario that demonstrates the shortcomings of that piece of gear and you can decide whether or not you can live with the tradeoff. He has a real good eye for what can go wrong and how to create that scenario"

There is no substitute for experience.

Dave Williams
 
Just curious - why were you carrying two pistols? Was this a requirement, or to simulate a way you anticipate having to fight, or what?
 
Would not a styer AUG with the built in power and a half have an advantage here. Tilt to one side, see a cartridge... You have 15 rounds left.

Booth eyes open... Big advantage.
 
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