Internet Ad - FTF Sale Only

[pdsmith505]

I much prefer to buy guns FTF w/o an FFL.

No papers, quick transitions, no middle-man getting paid a fee for something that's not required, can meet anywhere to do transaction, etc.

I suppose it probably helps that I don't sell guns, so I don't have to worry about it coming back to bite me.

 

[Bezoar]

when they post ftf only,

advertisement in a national website, or a state other then their own, the most common reasons are these

1. they just want to show off a gun. plain and simple. 'seeee, i have a mint condition ww1 erfurt luger and you dont"

2. they dont want to actually sell it, its just posted for sale in that louisianna guns for sale ad, but theyll only sell it face to face in indiana, because if they dont try to sell it, their wife will sell it for ten dollars to the neighbor.

3. they are afraid of a paper trail. plain and simple. they could have purchased it illegal from the back of "big bubbas gunstore on wheels" behind the stop and rob. Or they simply are in that bracket of "felon in possesion of firearm, get 10 more years".

And there are really good ways to deal with these people. There are incidences of when someone goes out to buy the gun, and they get robbed at home.

All you do is give them an address to meet you at, either you county sherriff, state police outpost, or what ever address houses the agency that deals with purchase permits.

 

[MrBorland]

And my experience with telling the ATF to "get bent" is that it's way cheaper to play nice with them than to pay a lawyer $100 an hour to get them off my back when they *do* get bent.

I have no experience with the ATF, and prefer to keep it that way, so this sounds like good advice.

FTF sales are legal in NC, so long as both are residents of NC, and the buyer/seller are otherwise legally able to buy/sell a firearm. So, when I sell FTF, I insist (ahead of time) on a receipt, signed by the buyer and the seller, each getting a copy. Included in the receipt is a description of the gun (and serial number), buyers name and address, DL #, and price. In the case of a handgun, I also write that I testify the buyer is legally able to purchase, and note their permit info.

So, if the ATF comes to my door, I can politely tell them I'm no longer the owner of the gun, and show them the receipt. At that point, it ought to be between the ATF and the buyer.

 

[CajunBass]

Why advertise here? It's convient and cheap.

Why not ship? Because it's a hassle. I don't even want to have to go by the post office to pick up a stamp to mail a check if I don't absolutly have to, much less ship a gun. Good grief. I don't need/want to sell one that bad. I don't want to buy one that bad.

 

[Jaywalker]

MrBorland: So, when I sell FTF, I insist (ahead of time) on a receipt, signed by the buyer and the seller, each getting a copy. Included in the receipt is a description of the gun (and serial number), buyers name and address, DL #, and price. In the case of a handgun, I also write that I testify the buyer is legally able to purchase, and note their permit info.

It's funny you should mention receipts. I put one of my pistols in the classified on a Texas gun forum, specifying FFL. It was amazing how much grief I got right there in the ad thread for not wanting FTF. Though I hadn't mentioned receipts, a couple of folks piled on, again in the ad thread, saying, "I bet you even want a Bill of Sale." I was more interested in learning what they had against receipts than in pointing out I hadn't mentioned it, so I asked what was wrong with that. They replied that receipts had no legal standing and, anyway, the law doesn't require it. So, long story short, I removed my ad, shifted my forum email address to one I abandoned long ago, and don't visit there anymore.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I like to buy and sell face to face.

1) I don't have an FFL who can ship for me, so if I sell interstate I have to pay out the butt for FedEx overnight shipping.
2. I prefer to deal in cash, and don't want to send anyone or have anyone send me cash in advance of a deal.
3. I prefer to buy guns from private sellers, even if advertised as new, in person, because it gives me a chance to examine the gun in person and back out if it is not as described.
4. I like to sell face to face because it means no waiting for payment or hassle with shipping, and also gives me an opportunity to meet with the buyer and see whether he or she trips my "weirdo shouldn't have a gun" alarm.

 

[Jaywalker]

Madcap,

Where do you meet these folks? What do you do when you're selling and they do trip your weirdness alarm?

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Madcap,

Where do you meet these folks? What do you do when you're selling and they do trip your weirdness alarm?

Seems to be about 50/50 between one of the gun boards where I am a member (THR, TFL, DC.com, GT) and people from Armslist. Generally speaking the people I meet are decent and friendly, and we have a nice little chat about guns.

I have only gotten a weirdo alarm once, a responder to an Armslist post I had selling a Beretta 92A1 turned into what in the law enforcement community is known as a "whacker."

He e-mailed me and said he was also local to me and wanted to see the gun in person. I e-mailed him and said no problem, if he wanted to buy, the price was firm, and I needed to see his driver's license and permit to carry/permit to purchase. He e-mailed me and said that was fine, and could we meet at his girlfriend's place of business?

So we met, and he happened to have a duty belt rig with some empty pouches and an empty holster. It was all generic nylon gear such as a basic USPSA competitor, security guard, or cop might have purchased for himself. I asked him casually if he was a competitive shooter or a cop.

He said "Oh, I work for the Department of Homeland Security. I can't tell you what I do, it's classified." Later on he also said he was looking for a new duty gun.

Right there my shenanigan meter started going off, because 1. He didn't really look like a government employee, he was pretty scruffy. While I don't really care about someone's personal appearance, I've never met a DHS agent who wasn't clean shaven, either, and I have met a few. Also, 2. The "I-can't-tell-you-what-I-do-or-I'd-have-to-kill-you line was old in the Eisenhower administration, and 3. I don't believe there is a federal agency in which you get to pick and buy your own duty gun. Some local sheriff's deputies or police officers do buy their own guns, but no feds do.

So at this point I had him pegged as a wannabe, but probably harmless.

So he looked at the gun and said he'd take it. I said, OK, let's see cash, driver's license, and permit to purchase or carry.

He said "Oh, I left my permit to carry in my tac vest at home."

I said "That's fine, we're local, I can wait, or we can meet again tomorrow." I was also thinking the fact that he carries his permit in a tac vest makes we wonder... bro, do you even operate?

So then I left, and later that night I got an e-mail saying he was going to back out of the sale because "I'm not comfortable buying a gun FROM SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT NO THE LAWS. Everyone knows LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS dont need permits if you don't no that, I don't want to buy from you."

And then I e-mailed him back saying "1. At no time did you identify yourself as a law enforcement officer, nor did you present credentials, and 2. There is no exception in Minnesota state law for a police officer to buy personal handguns without a permit to purchase or carry."

And I never heard from him again.

In any event, if I'm going to sell a gun, it's kind of like dating someone you met online... just meet in a public place at first, let someone know what you're doing and with whom you are meeting, and don't have the gun you're selling be the only one on the scene, if you know what I mean.

 

[oneounceload]

Copy pertinent papers? So we rally against registration by the government, but you'll go ahead and do your own. Letter of the law. No more, no less.

Exactly, WAY too many paranoid folks worrying much ado about nothing after the fact.

If you're worried, bring a friend. I like FTF and prefer it to keep my costs down. By the time you pay all of those extras, you might as well go to your local LGS and help keep a local employed.

I am neither required to copy your personal info, nor would I give a stranger my DL number or anything else that can easily lead to ID theft.

 

[MrBorland]

It's funny you should mention receipts....Though I hadn't mentioned receipts, a couple of folks piled on, again in the ad thread, saying, "I bet you even want a Bill of Sale."...They replied that receipts had no legal standing and, anyway, the law doesn't require it.

No, I don't think the law requires a receipt here either, but I'd point out that a receipt doesn't just protect the seller, but the buyer (aka "them") as well, since with it, the seller can't come along later and claim the gun was stolen.

At any rate, when it's FTF for me, it's receipt or no sale. There are plenty of others who'd happily cooperate.

What do you do when you're selling and they do trip your weirdness alarm?

Yeah, I too am curious how others would deal with this.

 

[AirForceShooter]

Here are my rules for buying and selling.
Cash
Face to Face
Ask the buyer if there's any reason he can't own a gun.
Meet in a very public place.
Buyer gives me cash I turn over gun. Or visa versa if I'm buying.
We head off in our own way

AFS

 

[Madcap_Magician]

What do you do when you're selling and they do trip your weirdness alarm?

Yeah, I too am curious how others would deal with this.

I don't sell guns to people who trip my weirdo alarm.

I actually take back what I said before, I have had two bad in-person experiences, but one was just at a local gun show, where a young man asked to buy a gun I had brought to the show (was walking around with it and a price tag). He clearly had no idea what the gun was (H&K P7), and did not seem to care so long as he could get a handgun (He offered to buy it at my stated price without even looking at the gun, which was still in the box, despite the blank expression on his face when I told him what it was).

He also kept his hands in his pockets, continuously shifted his weight around, would not look me directly in the eye, and kept rapidly looking around behind himself.

I said sure, he can buy it, as soon as I see his driver's license and permit to carry or purchase. He said "Um, I left them at home."

I said "Well, that's too bad. I'll be here, here's my phone number, if you want to run home and get them, I'll be wandering around the show."

He then immediately offered me $100 more to sell it to him right there, which is when I rolled my eyes and told him to shove off.

If someone gives you a hinky feeling, just don't sell to them. It's that simple.

EDIT: Today I had a third bad experience. I thought God loved me and gave me a Republican U.S. Senate and a S&W Model 60 Pro Series for $400 in the same night on Armslist, but it turns out that the seller had ripped pictures from other ads and was just scamming.

 

[Bezoar]

handwritten reciepts only go so far, but a filled out federal form that you have to do at the gunstore, thats priceless in the eyes of the federal court system.

so whats better, paying 30 dollars to timmys gun depot to do a transfer for you, or 200 and hour to a lawyer to explain to the judge and jury that the poorly written scrawl on a post it note says

"i dune botte this here pistol on december 10, 2014" and not "december 20, 2014" which would mean YOU the registered owner killed those poor gas station attendents on the 12th of december, and not the guy you sold it to on the 10th, or was it the 20th of december?

 

[oneounceload]

Here are my rules for buying and selling.
Cash
Face to Face
Ask the buyer if there's any reason he can't own a gun.
Meet in a very public place.
Buyer gives me cash I turn over gun. Or visa versa if I'm buying.
We head off in our own way

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

so whats better, paying 30 dollars to timmys gun depot to do a transfer for you, or 200 and hour to a lawyer to explain to the judge and jury that the poorly written scrawl on a post it note says

"i dune botte this here pistol on december 10, 2014" and not "december 20, 2014" which would mean YOU the registered owner killed those poor gas station attendents on the 12th of december, and not the guy you sold it to on the 10th, or was it the 20th of december?

Wow, a 4473 does NOT "register" any gun to you.

How about not having your poorly scrawled note in the first place? Do you get permission and trade IDs when you sell a chainsaw, knife, axe, or similar at a garage sale?

 

[guyfromohio]

Just anecdotal...I know.... Last year, I posted a bnib Remington R1 on Armslist. I posted my usual "FTF only in Columbus or Cleveland area. Must be legally eligible to purchase a handgun in Ohio. I will ask to see your ID to verify age and residency. CHL preferred". Arranged the meetup with someone wanting to pay my price of I think $600. Guy shows up in uniform, driving a Sheriff's car. I politely asked to see his ID. He laughed, showed it to me, we chatted for a bit and he took off. Before he left though, he said "thank you for not asking me to sign anything....I woukd have walked away from the sale....the law doesn't require it and there is no reason to go above and beyond what the law requires." I'm sure I paraphrased to an extent, but that was the conversation with an officer of the law in Ohio.

 

[guyfromohio]

Bezoar....why would you have to explain anything to anyone (unless your state laws require something for transfer)?

"I don't have it any longer"

You have done nothing wrong.

 

[clutch]

I'm in Michigan, if I'm selling a handgun a RI-60 has to be filled out. Might as well do the meet and greet in the lobby of the Sheriffs office where I'll be dropping off my part of the form after the sale.

 

[Valkman]

It's simpler to not deal with a FFL for one, and I don't like the hassle of dealing with FFL. Hassle hassle hassle. Time is money, if you're willing to pay more for my firearm and time to send it to you I'll do so through a FFL, but its a time thing for me. Just like I don't deliver unless they'll pay for delivery, gas and time!

Same here. I just put them on backpage.com and sell here at the house or if I happen to be going to Vegas I meet them there. Most have been happy to make the hour drive to Pahrump for a great gun or ammo. Dealing with the dealers here is expensive and a hassle. When I bought my Marlin 1894 off of Gunbroker the dealer here charged me $60 just to transfer it, the heck with that if I can avoid it.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I guess maybe some of our preferences on FTF or no can be developed by where we are living and conducting these transactions. This from the Illinois State Police website on transferring handguns:

http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/foidp2p.cfm

430 ILCS 65/3(a-10) - Any person who is not a federally licensed firearm dealer and who desires to transfer or sell a firearm or firearms to any person who is not a federally licensed firearm dealer shall, before selling or transferring the firearms, contact the Department of State Police with the transferee's or purchaser's Firearm Owner's Identification Card number to determine the validity of the transferee's or purchaser's Firearm Owner's Identification Card. This subsection shall not be effective until January 1, 2014. The Department of State Police may adopt rules concerning the implementation of this subsection. The Department of State Police shall provide the seller or transferor an approval number if the purchaser's Firearm Owner's Identification Card is valid. Approvals issued by the Department for the purchase of a firearm pursuant to this subsection are valid for 30 days from the date of issue.

For me, it's just easier to conduct all my business thru an FFL, all the time. If I lived elsewhere I think some of you other guys have a good routine and I'd adopt it.

VooDoo

 

[JonB]

I've gotten my last two guns FTF. 1. Meet in public place 2. I ask for CCW permit just to make sure other guy is legit. 3. Keep emails that have their phone numbers in them.

Similar to guyinohio, one gun i bought was from a cop. We traded ccw cards, he showed his badge, chatted a bit, and parted ways.

 

[Bezoar]

wanting to do the form is a good idea.
in michigan you have to. and its just plain common sense. it weeds alot of the nuts out. and its good for the seller.

seen a few of the forensic shows, its not good to be the guy a murder weapon gets traced back to, and all you have is a handwritten proof of sale to someone.

 

[MrBorland]

...poorly written scrawl on a post it note says

"i dune botte this here pistol on december 10, 2014" and not "december 20, 2014" which would mean YOU the registered owner killed those poor gas station attendents on the 12th of december, and not the guy you sold it to on the 10th, or was it the 20th of december?

its not good to be the guy a murder weapon gets traced back to, and all you have is a handwritten proof of sale to someone.

If that's your idea of a receipt, then yeah, you better go through an FFL.

 

[todd_g]

I sold a handgun to a person in PA, and I am in Mich. As far as I was concerned he was the one taking the risk sending me money based on just seeing pictures, email address and a phone number. He sent me a postal money order with his FFL information. He did ask that I ship it from my FFL which was a little odd. I said that was fine but he would have to pay the transfer cost + shipping that my FFL would charge. Turns out it was cheaper for me to send it through the FFL because he charged USPS rate + insurance which was still alot cheaper than sending it FedEx or UPS. I was able to send the guy about $15 back because of the savings.

Just walk away if something is not sitting right with the sale. You can buy a gun anywhere.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

It's a free country. Given my capitalist preferences, I try not to add extra expenses to transactions where not required by law.

Extra expenses may not seem like much added to a $1000 price tag, but they are a lot when added to transactions that might otherwise only be $50-$200 like for older, well worn 22 LRs, 870s, and NEF/H&R shotguns and rifles.

I sense a possible gun control agenda any time guns are singled out for special considerations that would not be applied with other items of similar value. I wouldn't ask for an ID if buying or selling most other items for under $1000, nor would I want a seller or buyer who is hardly known to me to have all the personal information contained on my DL. Receipts are commonly provided for transactions of all types, so I have no issue with providing a signed receipt if requested or requesting one if I need it for tax purposes or to have a written record for some other reason (insurance, etc.)

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Wow, a 4473 does NOT "register" any gun to you.

To me, this is an open question. The forms are transferred to the BATFE when a gun dealer goes out of businesses and almost nothing disappears completely from cyber space (including background checks).

If and when confiscations occur (and they are already occurring in some states), how big a role will this form play?

If one has not moved, it provides a pretty direct path to one's door. However, there are a lot of other paths to a gun owner's door also: FB posts, credit card transactions, hunting licenses, CCW, the sales receipts recovered when guns were confiscated from others, etc.

The degree to which any individual can avoid or delay confiscation will depend on how it comes. Who remembers the scene in Red Dawn where the officer in the invading army tells instructs a subordinate to get the 4473s from the local gun shops?