Interviewed at the ATM
- Thread starter curtste
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Thanks again everyone. The advice you've given is sound, and believe it or not, much of it is information I've already been exposed to. I've had some fairly extensive training, though not recent professional training. After sleeping on it for a night, I've come to the obvious conclusion that this all could have been avoided had I just acted in accordance with that training.
To use some common terminology, I was in a "white" combat mindset in a situation where I should have been much more alert. I was taught to never leave the house in anything less than a "yellow" combat mindset. I've prided myself for a long time in keeping situational awareness. But I was completely inside my own head at the moment, thinking about hitting softballs, chuckling about something my daughter had said moments before, oblivious to my surroundings, ambling through the moment without regard to our safety. I was a perfect target. As I think about it, I realize I've been acting this way for months now and I'm not pleased about it. I'm happy things turned out the way they did, and will definitely use this as a wake up call.
Regarding my firearm: I put the 1911 away a year ago when I stopped carrying it because it was inconvenient. That's when I picked up the 238. At least I had it. My background makes me most comfortable with a single action pistol of this type. I just need to give some serious thought to moving back to the pistol I've got some confidence in rather than giving in to convenience and laziness.
To use some common terminology, I was in a "white" combat mindset in a situation where I should have been much more alert. I was taught to never leave the house in anything less than a "yellow" combat mindset. I've prided myself for a long time in keeping situational awareness. But I was completely inside my own head at the moment, thinking about hitting softballs, chuckling about something my daughter had said moments before, oblivious to my surroundings, ambling through the moment without regard to our safety. I was a perfect target. As I think about it, I realize I've been acting this way for months now and I'm not pleased about it. I'm happy things turned out the way they did, and will definitely use this as a wake up call.
Regarding my firearm: I put the 1911 away a year ago when I stopped carrying it because it was inconvenient. That's when I picked up the 238. At least I had it. My background makes me most comfortable with a single action pistol of this type. I just need to give some serious thought to moving back to the pistol I've got some confidence in rather than giving in to convenience and laziness.
We use a drive through bank-operated ATM and we go together in daylight, never unarmed. If there is anything that looks suspicious, we drive away and come back later. We stay very alert until we have driven away some distance without being followed.
I am constantly assessing strategies and tactics. What we have been doing is not necessarily what we will decide to do in the future.
If one tries to put oneself in the mindset of a predator looking for money, one is likely to settle on the outdoor ATM as a prime target, more desirable than a quick-shop or service station. The ATM has every element that a criminal would want--high probability of getting a considerable sum, and a task-occupied victim, likely unaccompanied by an alert armed citizen.
Location has a lot to do with it. Tom Givens refers to the ATM in a bad area at night as the human predator's equivalent of a water hole on the Serengeti Plain.
Egress and escape are also probably important elements. Where we go, a carload or two of perps who have just attacked someone and who have been reported will have to travel several miles on narrow congested streets with traffic signals before getting to a good escape route. Whether the perps can be relied upon to figure that out is questionable, however; last summer, my pulling a cellphone precipitated the fast departure of two furtive looking people in a car parked the wrong way outside a grocery store--one was scoping out the manager's cubicle but aborted whatever plan he had when the driver so directed with hand signals; they were a long way from the Interstate.
Regarding the P238: I have never not gone to the ATM because what I happened to have with me was a J-Frame .38, but I do prefer a little more firepower if the trip is planned in advance. However, one should always put mindset before toolset.
Personally, I do not like the idea of leaving children locked in an automobile in a questionable circumstance.
And yes, call the police next time, immediately.
I am constantly assessing strategies and tactics. What we have been doing is not necessarily what we will decide to do in the future.
If one tries to put oneself in the mindset of a predator looking for money, one is likely to settle on the outdoor ATM as a prime target, more desirable than a quick-shop or service station. The ATM has every element that a criminal would want--high probability of getting a considerable sum, and a task-occupied victim, likely unaccompanied by an alert armed citizen.
Location has a lot to do with it. Tom Givens refers to the ATM in a bad area at night as the human predator's equivalent of a water hole on the Serengeti Plain.
Egress and escape are also probably important elements. Where we go, a carload or two of perps who have just attacked someone and who have been reported will have to travel several miles on narrow congested streets with traffic signals before getting to a good escape route. Whether the perps can be relied upon to figure that out is questionable, however; last summer, my pulling a cellphone precipitated the fast departure of two furtive looking people in a car parked the wrong way outside a grocery store--one was scoping out the manager's cubicle but aborted whatever plan he had when the driver so directed with hand signals; they were a long way from the Interstate.
Regarding the P238: I have never not gone to the ATM because what I happened to have with me was a J-Frame .38, but I do prefer a little more firepower if the trip is planned in advance. However, one should always put mindset before toolset.
Personally, I do not like the idea of leaving children locked in an automobile in a questionable circumstance.
And yes, call the police next time, immediately.
Loosedhorse
member
If I may, I think that's a wise choice. Clint Smith says that a pistol is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable.
Congratulations on being a fallible human being, just like the rest of us. Ego te absolvo. Now go forth and sin no more.
xXxplosive
Member
IMO..........you made the right moves as... It Was On......and you Shut It OFF......nice.
It is a easy state to fall into and I'm glad you are able to reflect back on it the next day...that is a win.
As I've had many instructors tell me, Avoidance is always the first choice. I have had occassion to visit ATMs at strip malls at night...just bad planning on my part...but a couple of things to keep in mind to make yourself appear a less inviting target:
1. Good lighting - not only at the ATM but the surrounding area....predators seldom prefer to work in the light
2. Park close - I park right next to the ATM...I certainly wouldn't leave a child 10 yards away in a locked car.
3. Use you off-hand - leave your gun hand free...creates the impression you might be armed
4. Acknowledge folks as they approach - shows you are aware...they don't have the advantage of surprise
5. Eye contact isn't always a great idea - it can be taken as a challenge to be met. I'm not a hand watcher either, it is a very superficial indicator of danger. The shoulders/COM is better, but you have to know what to look for.
6. Don't engage in conversation - it lengthens the OODA loop
If you favor the a SAO platform, might I suggest the Springfield EMP as a better alternative to the SIG 238...if you are willing to expand your choices, the Kahr CM9 is a great alternative
Carl Levitian
member
Never having used one, I've never understood why people use ATM's.
racegun luver
Member
- Joined
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- 2
curtste,
Glad You and your daughter are A-OK ! I would say that You did a great job and probably better than most.....
like someone else said....
Carrying a gun- CHECK!
Not having to draw it but being able to if so required and showing that You were ready- Check!
could You have done better about some some of the situation, hindsight 20/20, of course there are things that could have been done better or different, but in the end, You and your daughter are fine and healthy and she didn't suffer any emotional trauma.
Glad You and your daughter are A-OK ! I would say that You did a great job and probably better than most.....
like someone else said....
Carrying a gun- CHECK!
Not having to draw it but being able to if so required and showing that You were ready- Check!
could You have done better about some some of the situation, hindsight 20/20, of course there are things that could have been done better or different, but in the end, You and your daughter are fine and healthy and she didn't suffer any emotional trauma.
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
Like Carl, I go inside, during hours, and get money. Wife covers from the truck.
Dont ATM's have fees?
Dont ATM's have fees?
allaroundhunter
Member
As long as I use an ATM associated with my card there are no extra fees.
Glad you're safe, That's something you won't forget. Next time, I bet you scan the place for sure, won't you! My wife walked up to a bank robbery in progress several years ago. She got to the front door of the place and saw all the tellers standing against the wall, she said it took about one second to realize what was going on so she acted like she forgot something did an about face and went back to her car. I still see her scan our local bank before she goes in after all these years. I never ask her I just know that is what she is doing. Awareness and observation are good things that we forget sometimes.
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Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
As long as I use USAA there are no fees either =)
Generally not if they are the ATM of the bank where you have your deposit account. On the contrary, many banks now charge fees if you go inside and deal with a human being. Human employees are more expensive than ATM machines over the long haul.
For those of us who live in urban areas, there are ATM's almost every block. You can avoid using them, but you cannot avoid being near them.
josiewales
Member
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- May 1, 2011
- Messages
- 694
2. The overwhelming thought that my little P238 never felt as little as it did the moment I realized what was going on.) One reason to carry a S&W 500. 
1stmarine
Member
This is the best way to have a pleasant visit to the ATM...
Also a good way to have guarantee a smooth Craiglists transactions...
Also a good way to have guarantee a smooth Craiglists transactions...
Carl Levitian
member
This being the strategies and tactics section of the forum, and how to stay out of trouble, I have to question why anyone would go to a place that all the street criminals know that there is money being drawn out, and it's outside on open hunting ground?
Makes about as much sense as going swimming in the ocean with some nice fresh beef liver in your pockets or going drinking at a seedy bar and paying for that last beer with a 100 dollar bill and stuffing the change in your pocket as you stagger out. Neither is going to have a good outcome. Unless your fishing for predators.
Carl.
Makes about as much sense as going swimming in the ocean with some nice fresh beef liver in your pockets or going drinking at a seedy bar and paying for that last beer with a 100 dollar bill and stuffing the change in your pocket as you stagger out. Neither is going to have a good outcome. Unless your fishing for predators.
Carl.
thesecond
Member
All 'troughs' have associated risks. An ATM, unfortunately, is quite thoroughly conventional. No going back.
.38 special and/or a .380 (or even .32 acp, for that matter) 'feels' just fine for the single bachelor who can still sprint a little, move laterally, and react reasonably quick.
Add to that equation, a large vehicle that obscures vision, a location known to attract robbers, and a wife and children 'in your charge' who bring inherent vulnerabilities, whether by physical inability, oblivion, and/or disinclination: Suddenly the 'micro' wouldn't feel so adequate to me. (Though a single-action with a great trigger would mitigate some of the inadequate feeling.)
This is not to be overly-critical, because taking the step to be lawfully armed to defend one's self and loved ones, and, likely, in that instant, conveying a certain 'willingness' (or even a 'shakey randomness'), factored into their decision to break-off. (Folks just don't walk around like that if they're the type of people who go ATM's to withdraw their own money.)
Involve your children - 'Heads low and fixated on a 2 x 4 high-resolution screen' is not a safe way to stroll through life. Think of ways to use their abilities for the overall safety of the group. Eyes to watch, fingers to lock doors and push alarm buttons, mouths to alert. This is especially true from dusk through dawn.
One thing to add: A 'drive-through' 'anything' is not always safer than a 'walk-up' equivalent.
.38 special and/or a .380 (or even .32 acp, for that matter) 'feels' just fine for the single bachelor who can still sprint a little, move laterally, and react reasonably quick.
Add to that equation, a large vehicle that obscures vision, a location known to attract robbers, and a wife and children 'in your charge' who bring inherent vulnerabilities, whether by physical inability, oblivion, and/or disinclination: Suddenly the 'micro' wouldn't feel so adequate to me. (Though a single-action with a great trigger would mitigate some of the inadequate feeling.)
This is not to be overly-critical, because taking the step to be lawfully armed to defend one's self and loved ones, and, likely, in that instant, conveying a certain 'willingness' (or even a 'shakey randomness'), factored into their decision to break-off. (Folks just don't walk around like that if they're the type of people who go ATM's to withdraw their own money.)
Involve your children - 'Heads low and fixated on a 2 x 4 high-resolution screen' is not a safe way to stroll through life. Think of ways to use their abilities for the overall safety of the group. Eyes to watch, fingers to lock doors and push alarm buttons, mouths to alert. This is especially true from dusk through dawn.
One thing to add: A 'drive-through' 'anything' is not always safer than a 'walk-up' equivalent.
JRH6856
Member
Drive up ATMs are extremely vulnerable. Vision is obscured in almost all directions and it is easy for someone to dash up, grab the cash and be gone without you even seeing where he came from or went. ATMs on an island are especially bad because the perp can use the ATM itself as cover both before and after the grab. I much prefer ATMs inside an open business such as a grocery or convenience store.
lobo9er
Member
Assuming it all happened.
allaroundhunter
Member
Is there really a need for this? There wasn't anything far-fetched in his description of what happened, he didn't Gecko45 the two would-be perps, and stories like this are becoming all too common.
There is nothing that says we should not believe him.
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