Interviewed at the ATM

[Gordon]

A couple years back I wrote the same thing happened to me, with my very white hair on a alley way walk up. I had a .38 in the side pocket and my hand on it with finger on the trigger in the pocket but did ot pull it. Same results as you, but the BIG thing I remember is after the 30 minute ride home I wanted a (couple) stiff drink as the adrenaline was a dumping!

 

[jrw69]

+1 allaround, he's on the underpass not the High Road.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by MicroTecniqs: Drive up ATMs are extremely vulnerable. Vision is obscured in almost all directions and it is easy for someone to dash up, grab the cash and be gone without you even seeing where he came from or went. ATMs on an island are especially bad because the perp can use the ATM itself as cover both before and after the grab.

Good comments, and those are good reasons to go in the daytime, to not go alone, to be armed, and to remain extremely alert.

I much prefer ATMs inside an open business such as a grocery or convenience store.

So, the question at hand is, is it better to depart from the ATM in a powered vehicle that weighs more than a ton, or to walk toward said vehicle after withdrawing the cash?

 

[N003k]

I actually read the arrest logs of a local town, very suburban, upper class, no real 'bad' parts. A week ago or so two men were noticed acting suspiciously outside a bank, turns out they were getting ready to mug someone at the ATM. Their first mark was only saved from it because they saw he only took out $20.00

Heres a local news story about it actually: http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/crime/wannabe-robbers-wore-eye-catching-gear

So, another thing to remember is no matter how nice the area, always have to be careful.

I personally use only one specific ATM whenever possible, a drive up at my bank built into the side of the building. Anyone trying something has to come from a parking lot on my right, straight in front of me, or from behind me. They really designed the location of it pretty well overall.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

So, the question at hand is, is it better to depart from the ATM in a powered vehicle that weighs more than a ton, or to walk toward said vehicle after withdrawing the cash?

When inside a Wal-mart, I draw the cash first, then do my shopping, rather than it being the last thing I do. I can then survey all the customers around me and decide if anybody is following, waiting, acting weird, etc. But I'm always armed and usually not alone.

 

[leadcounsel]

Great work and great result. Great situational awareness. Great work carrying and protecting yourself and daughter. Kudos.

My thoughts - after they retreated, maybe take pictures of them and report them to the police?

Use safe ATMs inside banks?

 

[JRH6856]

Good comments, and those are good reasons to go in the daytime, to not go alone, to be armed, and to remain extremely alert.

So, the question at hand is, is it better to depart from the ATM in a powered vehicle that weighs more than a ton, or to walk toward said vehicle after withdrawing the cash?

Depends. If you are departing in your vehicle with or without you cash. Like you say, go in the dayime and don't go alone, be armed and be alert. Personally, I rarely, if ever, have a need to withdraw cash late at night so the stores and parking lots are usually busy when I am there.

 

[1stmarine]

I agree with the simple planning concept. The best and safer defense in a situation is not being there in the first place.

 

[gyvel]

Some are proponents of "bigger is better," but the the point that is too often overlooked is that no "rational" person wants to get shot with anything.

ATM muggers, purse snatchers, etc. are looking for an easy score. These people are the lowest common denomimator of humanity, and are basically predatory cowards as they seldom work alone. Showing them a gun, any gun, is a deterrent against these types of scum.

While they are vile, lowlife dregs of a society gone bad, they generally aren't stupid enough to take a bullet when there are other, easier (preferably unarmed) targets out there.

 

[JRH6856]

While they are vile, lowlife dregs of a society gone bad, they generally aren't stupid enough to take a bullet when there are other, easier (preferably unarmed) targets out there.

Nice theory, but don't depend on it. You might run into a gangbanger who is ready to take bullet just to get respect. Yeah, they are out there too.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Interesting the varied opinions of walk-up or drive-through ATMs. I wonder if this is perhaps a result of different ATM architecture, different cars, different carry methods, etc.

The drive-through option chiefly offers quick escape, but limits visibility and ability to draw. How we weigh those advantages and disadvantages may depend on a number of details, or personal experience. For me, I've so far had more trouble with drive-through ATMs (having to reach, trouble viewing the screen, etc.) than I think they're worth, but I'm sure that's different for others.

 

[fallout mike]

You did fine man. I've had similar things happen several times. I haven't had to shoot yet either. I haven't lost any money either. I did have my face cut once when in a position to not be able to carry.

 

[coolluke01]

Nice job.
I think it's interesting to see how the thought of a weapon was a sufficient deterrent. Imagine how much better a small hole in them would be. Ability to hit your target should be your main reason for choosing a weapon. Penetration is also an issue.
I'm glad you were prepared. Not only having equipment, but the willingness and ability to defend yourself.

 

[heeler]

I use the ATM's in stores because they are so numerous.
Around here the drive up ATM's are pretty much at banks only.
It's very rare I pull more than $60-$80 out of them anyway as once upon a few years ago I was heading out town and was going to get $200.00 out for the trip and the machine had a malfunction and I only received $20 and it took me six weeks to get that mess resolved and had to rely on credit cards for a lot of the trips expenses.

 

[Carl Levitian]

Looking over the whole thing, I think the OP was a very lucky man. He committed error on top of error, but came through because the two bad guys were not desperate enough. It could have went way different.

1. Goes to a ATM shark feeding ground at night.

2. Has his child in the car right there.

3. Was outnumbered as would be usual. Thugs tend to run and attack in packs.

If the would be thugs had pressed it, he'd have been in a shoot out with two to one odds. Not good. With his child watching daddy get shot. If it had been gang bangers, he'd have been in a shooting for sure, since taking down an armed opponent would increase his standing in a gang, for that gang member.

The guy lucked out on a lose/lose situation.

Has it gone totally out of style to cash your paycheck and put some money in your wallet each morning to get you through the day? Everyone has fallen into the trap set by the finical institutions with credit cards and ATM's. What's wrong with paying your way as you go? Take responsibility for your own life and running it. You just may stay out of trouble that way, in more ways than one.

Strategies and tactics, it's not just for crime prevention.

Carl.

 

[fallout mike]

Carl is right. You should never leave your house after dark. You should not take your kids with you anywhere. You should always carry and use cash. You should live your life like you are in prison yourself.

 

[ATLDave]

Everyone has fallen into the trap set by the finical institutions with credit cards and ATM's. What's wrong with paying your way as you go? Take responsibility for your own life and running it.

??? You understand that most people use ATM's to get cash out of their bank accounts, right? The same as cashing your paycheck, except that you can do it when it's convenient for you, not stand in line for the tellers, can take less cash out which means higher balances and more interest/lower fees/better customer service, etc. I fail to even remotely understand how that is a failure to "take responsibility for your own life."

 

[ATLDave]

Interesting the varied opinions of walk-up or drive-through ATMs. I wonder if this is perhaps a result of different ATM architeture, different cars, different carry methods, etc.

The drive-through option chiefly offers quick escape, but limits visibility and ability to draw. How we way those advantages and disadvantages may depend on a number of details, or personal experience. For me, I've so far had more trouble with drive-through ATMs (having to reach, trouble viewing the screen, et.) than I think they're worth, but I'm sure that's different for others.

Drive throughs only offer "quick escape" in some circumstances. They often have curbs on both sides that prevent any lateral maneuvering. If you are stuck in a line of cars, you are completely trapped.

 

[Fred Fuller]

There are few guarantees in life, save perhaps that snarkiness is little restrained on the Internet. Even here, sometimes. You'd think people would know better, but I suppose it's too much to wish for.

Pretty much everything in life is a tradeoff in one way or another. Almost nothing is 100% safe. Living wisely is a never-ending series of decisions, conscious or otherwise, balancing all sorts of variables.

One of the biggest things we have to balance in life as armed citizens is risk versus reward, comfort versus inconvenience. That covers everything from what gun/what caliber we carry, to how often we carry, to where we go, when we go there and what we do while on the trip. For the majority of us, the majority of the time, there are no complications. Sometimes, for whatever reason, things don't go as well. Sometimes we get out of the resulting situation OK on our own, sometimes we need help to get out of it, and sometimes, rarely, we don't do very well.

Human beings are by nature reflective critters. It's one of the things that makes us tick. We learn lessons from the things that happen to us, and we learn lessons from the things that happen to other people as well, if we're smarter than the average bear. Near misses tend to make us very reflective indeed. It's a human thing. Most of us are wired that way.

Every day I try and make a run through at least the headlines on the gun blogs, to see who's been up to what. It's just one more way to keep up a little bit of awareness about what's going on in another segment of the community of 'gun people.' One of my favorite bloggers for the past year or so is a newbie to the community of gun people. She got here the hard way, in the aftermath of being victimized, but she made all the right decisions after that, by my own lights anyway. She decided it wasn't going to happen again, and she set out to see to it that she would be better able to prevent being victimized again.

A couple of days ago, she looked back on the experience that pushed her into doing things she thought she would never do. If you want to see her reflections, go to http://agirlandhergun.blogspot.com/2012/03/it-doesnt-matter.html .

If we're reasonably healthy in the mental sense of the word, we learn lessons from life and we move on. We don't spend too much time living in the past or woolgathering and navelgazing when there are things to do, places to go, people to see. We get on with life. "Live and learn," the old saying goes.

The thing is to learn the right lessons from what life is trying to teach us...

 

[Kleanbore]

Without wanting to appear overly critical, I believe that the OP's experience, analyzed thusly:

Posted by Carl Levitian: Looking over the whole thing, I think the OP was a very lucky man. He committed error on top of error, but came through because the two bad guys were not desperate enough. It could have went way different.

1. Goes to a ATM shark feeding ground at night.

2. Has his child in the car right there.

3. Was outnumbered as would be usual. Thugs tend to run and attack in packs.

If the would be thugs had pressed it, he'd have been in a shoot out with two to one odds. Not good. With his child watching daddy get shot. If it had been gang bangers, he'd have been in a shooting for sure, since taking down an armed opponent would increase his standing in a gang, for that gang member.

The guy lucked out on a lose/lose situation.

...can teach us all something, because of this:

Posted by Fred Fuller: Human beings are by nature reflective critters. It's one of the things that makes us tick. We learn lessons from the things that happen to us, and we learn lessons from the things that happen to other people as well, if we're smarter than the average bear. Near misses tend to make us very reflective indeed. It's a human thing. Most of us are wired that way.

I do not think it teaches to not use ATMs. In many cases, and for many people, they are a necessity. I do think it teaches us the importance of considering which one to use, when, and with whom, and of being alert and prepared when doing so.

One may have to use an ATM at night, and one may have to go alone, though I try to avoid both. If it does become necessary to do so, here is some good advice:

Posted by 9mmepiphany:

1. Good lighting - not only at the ATM but the surrounding area....predators seldom prefer to work in the light
2. Park close - I park right next to the ATM...I certainly wouldn't leave a child 10 yards away in a locked car.
3. Use you off-hand - leave your gun hand free...creates the impression you might be armed
4. Acknowledge folks as they approach - shows you are aware...they don't have the advantage of surprise
5. Eye contact isn't always a great idea - it can be taken as a challenge to be met. I'm not a hand watcher either, it is a very superficial indicator of danger. The shoulders/COM is better, but you have to know what to look for.
6. Don't engage in conversation - it lengthens the OODA loop

 

[Loosedhorse]

They often have curbs on both sides that prevent any lateral maneuvering. If you are stuck in a line of cars, you are completely trapped.

Well, again, this may depend on your car. Unless they're actual Jersey barriers, my car is going over curbs, no problem. If I'm stuck in a line of cars, well, at least I didn't go at midnight ()--and why did this guy wait to rob ME, given all the other cars in line?

An additional point--that can also be argued either way--is whether the car provides some cover (or at least obstacle) that an ATM doesn't. Of course, my favorite ATM (walk-up) is enclosed in a vestibule, from which you can see people approach, and they have to use a card to get in--harder to surprise you.

Of course, anyone can be surprised in Condition White. Or if they're staring at the bitty screen letters trying to figure out which button to press!

 

[gyvel]

Nice theory, but don't depend on it. You might run into a gangbanger who is ready to take bullet just to get respect. Yeah, they are out there too.

Then give him one.

 

[Old Guy]

Interesting list of replys

Our use of an ATM, my Wife and I move cash around, re Canadian Pensions, take cash out put it back.

Only during the day, she presses buttons, feeds cash, in and out.

I lean up, and look out. Glock 19 always, OWB under shirt/sweater.

Once a month exercise, our Bank.

I think the original poster did OK, circumstance kind of dictated his actions.

The hole/muzzle, of a .380, is the same physical size as a 9mm/38/357.

Looked at from the front? Bigger! Bad Guys do not mind being arrested by Police, guns pointed at them even.

But having a Citizen point a pistol at them, shaking/vibrating! Like a dog passing razor blades? "I could be killed by accident" Holy crap, exit stage left, comes to mind.

 

[vtuck2]

Quote: "But having a Citizen point a pistol at them, shaking/vibrating! Like a dog passing razor blades? "I could be killed by accident" Holy crap, exit stage left, comes to mind."

Well here's what I'd really love to know: At what point would the OP have had legal justification ("reasonable cause") to shoot?

Of course this changes from state to state. In Texas, as I understand it, I have to "reasonably be in fear for my life". This means that merely being assaulted is insufficient cause unless a) the assailant is much bigger than I am or, b) there are multiple assailants.

So, the question in my mind becomes "At what point would the OP have crossed the legal threshold to at least "arguable" justification?

In my mind, it would have been a) at any point in time and space at which either assailant pulled a weapon AND took another step toward me; b) at the point at which either assailant gets within arm's length of me. But to me it's all murky unless the encounter is inside my dwelling - at night - and the assailant has "entered with violence".

So, for me the "teaching moment" here is the "end game" had the match continued to unfold.

I personally would not want to kill somebody over $20 or $100 or even $600 I've just withdrawn from an ATM. As I've told our children "killing is forever". Even if the newly departed perp is a scum bag, maybe he is everything in the world to his mother, sister, spouse, or child. That is to say, we never kill (or die) in a vacuum. There are human repercussions that are unknowable and incomprehensible.

Aside from that, even if you don't share my philosophy in this regard, there is the PRACTICAL aspect of the matter. From a purely financial standpoint it would be better to hand them the $600 (the maximum my ATM card will withdraw at one time) than to pull the trigger. The OP would beyond a doubt burn much much more than that in attorney defense fees in the aftermath.

My above position is predicated on the event having unfolded as a "strongarm" or "intimidation" robbery where the assailants do not produce or display a weapon.

On the other hand, if, having given them the money, they say "give me the f****** keys" or "open your car" then (for me anyway) I would be on firm solid footing to do what I have to do".

Of course it's easy for us to ruminate and reflect on all of this now. Not so easy for the OP when the events are quickly unfolding. Under the OP's circumstances I'm not saying that's how he should have done or looked at things. I'm not even saying that's necessarily what I would have done when confronted with a clear and present danger. It is easy, cheap, and even banal for all of us to pick him and his actions apart

But that is not to say I would not want to take this opportunity to wring out every bit of learning the event has to offer. So, in closing I will say this. I'd probably have drawn and fired at the point at which: a) a weapon is displayed; b) the assailants are within arm's reach of me. Given that the OP had his child with him, in my mind he could not have afforded the luxury of "paying them to go away".

So, again, what I'd like to see before this thread dies, is your analyses of what would have been EXPEDIENT - and not what is "right" if the perps had KEPT COMING. As we all know, any self defense shooting in public is going to be a colossal problem.

V

V

 

[JRH6856]

Posted by vtuck2: In Texas, as I understand it, I have to "reasonably be in fear for my life".

Yes, but in Texas, it is legal to use force to stop or prevent an unlawful use of force against you. In Texas, the threat of deadly force is not considered to be a use of deadly force, but is considered to be a use of force. So, if you are unlawfully threatened with force, deadly or not, you may threaten deadly force to stop it, which means you can draw and point your weapon. Now, this is where it gets tricky. It has been explained to me that if the threat of deadly force does not stop the unlawful threat or use of force, then the threat becomes deadly as your weapon may be taken and used against you. At that point, you may be "reasonably in fear for your life." I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. You should consult with an attorney for a legal guidance.