Intresting LEO Perspective on citizens CCW

[Hypnogator]

I just finished doing another judgmental use-of-force training session with a Missouri sheriff's department. Their instructor especially liked our "Off-Duty Carjacking" scenario, which places the student in the position of an off-duty officer going to his car from an office building. He is confronted by a white male with his hand on a Glock tucked into his waistband, who demands the keys to his car. Depending on the trainee's tactics, the suspect will either pull the gun and shoot at him, or back off and put his hands up. If he shoots, a man with a cell phone which he passed as he approached the car jumps in front of him, thrusts the cell phone at him, and demands to know who he is. (He gets shot a lot.)

The training emphasized proper verbal commands, specifically, that the trainee should announce that he is a law enforcement officer. The departmental instructor pointed out to the officers that the man with the cell phone could well have had a legal concealed weapon, and might have attempted to intervene after the suspect was shot, if the student didn't properly identify himself, thus possibly provoking a good-guy / good-guy shootout.

Out of all the students I trained, I only heard one negative comment about concealed weapon permits -- one deputy opined that "Those guys with gun permits only get them because they're out looking to shoot somebody anyway."

I thought it was interesting that the agency was definitely concerned that it's officers use tactics to minimize the likelihood of an "unfortunate incident" should a citizen unknowingly attempt to intervene in a deadly-force situation with an off-duty officer.

They know you're out there. And they're emphasizing good tactics to minimize the risk to you as well as themselves.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

Interesting. Although that worries me that that one officer thinks that those with concealed weapons permit only got them because they want to kill someone. If you're ever in a self-defense situation and have to go to court, is a lawyer going to try to use "He had a permit so that means it was premeditated murder! Lock him up and I want a raise for another one prosecuted!"

 

[bb21]

I am just beginning a career in Law Enforcement so this topic is interesting to me. I for one as a permit holder think Concealed Carry is a good thing and don't buy into the notion that permit holders are out to shoot someone. I asked an officer I work with regularly what he thought on the subject he replied along the lines if there is two or three thugs pointing a gun at us he would like me standing at his side. I asked another officer from the same department the same question, he replied knowing I was a permit holder, I don't think anyone but police and ex-military should have guns.
I really think the public including many Law Enforcement officers are not educated about concealed carry. We need to inform when opportunities arise and know the facts and truth about the benefits. I only wish more good and lawful people did carry. I think most of us on THR can see both sides of the story and know what is best.

 

[buzz_knox]

I asked another officer from the same department the same question, he replied knowing I was a permit holder, I don't think anyone but police and ex-military should have guns.
I really think the public including may Law Enforcement officers are not educated about concealed carry.

The one you mentioned above is probably fully aware of concealed carry, but simply doesn't believe anyone but the group he belongs to should be armed. I've met more than a few like that.

 

[Geno]

According to my Tactical Shooting and Advanced Tactical Shooting instructors (and both are LEOs), 50% of SE Michigan officers are anti-CCWs, and 50% are pro-CCWs.

Doc2005

 

[Zundfolge]

one deputy opined that "Those guys with gun permits only get them because they're out looking to shoot somebody anyway."

Oh yeah? Well the only reason people become cops is so they can beat up black people.


Lets see how Officer Elitist here likes the bigotry thrown back in his direction.

 

[Robert Hairless]

That's encouraging, Hypnogator, and it makes good sense too. With Buzz Knox's comment in mind as well, I think that the law enforcement officer's ideal situation would be one in which he and every other good person has the means to subdue someone with an evil goal. I don't see why any law enforcement officer would want to be out there alone to confront a violent person in the midst of helpless people. Why would anyone want a lonely, stressful situation.

I don't mean that the citizens around a law enforcement officer in such a situation should be vigilantes or play junior deputies. What I mean is that the presence of people who don't have the means to defend themselves must be an additional burden on the officer. I also can't imagine any concealed weapons permit holder present at such a situation who would allow a violent criminal to murder a helpless officer without coming to his assistance one way or another.

 

[pbearperry]

Leos against Concealed Permit Holders

I have not been a member here very long but I have seen many anti law enforcement statements.Just because 1 Deputy makes a stupid statement about only cops and ex military should have guns,that is not the avarage cops feelings.I had a few knotheads on my Dept. also,but the majority of cops I know are pro gun for all citizens.Almost every cop I know is a member of the NRA and proudly so.
There are all kinds of cops out there folks and please remember,they usually are hired from whithin your own community.They don't come from another planet.People just love painting cops with a broad brush,esp when a rotten apple is caught and weeded out.
I even saw one statement about people becoming cops so they could beat black people.lol I worked in a city that is aprox 40 % black and I used to hate locking a black up because of the verbal abuse and crap connected to it.Give me a white arrest .....Please .

 

[Erik]

It's the paradigm he's looking through:

(Simply put)

LEOs look for trouble.
LEOs carry guns.
Someone else is carrying a gun.
That person must also be looking for trouble.

It is a popular although minority view in law enforcement in my experience.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Give Hypnogator a break, guys. His point is that out of all the cops he trained there was only one who didn't want citizens to have concealed weapons permits. Hypnogator himself doesn't think highly of that cop, so why spend so much energy on him. That cop is a tree in a much bigger forest.

When we focus on that one tree we ignore the forest Hynogator is trying to show us and we wander off into cop bashing that's pointless in this discussion. Yes, there undoubtedly are other cops who agree with that one. Take a look around this forum and you'll see a great many citizens who point out problem cops.

I've never understood why people seem to enjoy wriggling around in bad instead of working towards encouraging good, which is what Hypnogator obviously is trying to do. Bad is awful, but good is unacceptable, better is an insulting compromise that violates our principles, and perfect is us and nobody else.

 

[Ed Ames]

I think the LEO perception of CCW may change in years to come. Why?

In my recent CHL class there was one guy who was not currently an LEO but does work in the criminal justice system and plans to become a LEO. Because he isn't a LEO he must follow the same rules as any other citizen. When/if he transitions to law enforcement he will do so with a background of having been a concealed handgun licensee for a couple of years first. I suspect that will be a more common trend in years to come as criminal justice students and the like are in a position to perceive the risks more accutely and get a concealed carry permit before they graduate and apply for jobs as law enforcement officers.

Will the effect be positive or negative? That I cannot say. I suspect positive but it could cut either way.

 

[LiquidTension]

At my office, most of the agents are pro-CWP. We are all strongly anti gun when it comes to the criminals we deal with though

I had a CWP for about 5 years before I got into LE.

 

[bsf]

According to my Tactical Shooting and Advanced Tactical Shooting instructors (and both are LEOs), 50% of SE Michigan officers are anti-CCWs, and 50% are pro-CCWs.

Doc2005

That is not encouraging. I support giving Detroit and all its inhabitants to Canada with the stipulation that all sales are final.

 

[krahling]

"That is not encouraging. I support giving Detroit and all its inhabitants to Canada with the stipulation that all sales are final."

I'm pretty sure that would be an act of war.

 

[bsf]

I'm pretty sure that would be an act of war.

I can definitely see how Canada would want to declare war on us after that. Talk about a Trojan horse.

 

[PakWaan]

As a former police officer for 10 years, I remember thinking on many occasions when a civilian was attacked that it was a shame they didn't have a firearm to defend themselves - it might have made a bad situation come out very differently if they had been armed.

 

[jeepmor]

"Those guys with gun permits only get them because they're out looking to shoot somebody anyway."

That deputy is uneducated. Why would someone go through the hassle of putting one's self in a worldwide database if all they wanted to do was shoot someone.

Just another example of the "there's always at least one" that can tarnish it for the rest. Hopefully, he'll come around to seeing that the opposite is true, permit holders are people don't want to fall victim to a Cho, Hawkins, or Murray and so on. All of those, this year. Or, some crazed methhead at the local convenience store who can't read "register only has $40". I hope to avoid those confronations entirely. I want to be able to protect my family. The cops can deal with the problem, I just want to survive ground zero, where the LEOs may make it in several minutes or more.

 

[DrewH]

There are many, many people who don't believe in CCW, or even gun ownership. Including many cops. I have met one or two in my life. No need to stress about their opinions, as long as they follow the law. If only one cop said that in this class, that is pretty good.

 

[buzz_knox]

No need to stress about their opinions, as long as they follow the law.

This is an important point to consider, because it cuts both ways. The opinion of antis shouldn't matter where civilian carry is legal. The converse is equally true: the opinion of pro-gun cops doesn't matter where civilian carry is illegal. Either they follow the law or they don't.

 

[mekender]

I have not been a member here very long but I have seen many anti law enforcement statements.Just because 1 Deputy makes a stupid statement about only cops and ex military should have guns,that is not the avarage cops feelings.

youll find that anytime a post is made about cops, people here for the most part will start a huge cop bashing train... its always overzealous cops, over aggressive tactics etc... most dont realize that cops are probably some of the best 2A allies we have

 

[buck00]

I asked another officer from the same department the same question, he replied knowing I was a permit holder, I don't think anyone but police and ex-military should have guns.

In the book "Serpico," the officer (Frank Serpico) said one symbol of police corruption was when they developed an "us vs them" mentality about the public- meaning some cops forget the public is their community and view them as "prey" (aka, what can I bust this guy for?).

I think on another level, some cops don't like sharing power with civilians. Knowing there are people out there with CCWs or rifles in their homes bothers or scares them. Why? Trust. They don't trust the public. To keep this thread positive- this is why we (as law-abiding firearms owners) must do everything we can to promote firearm safety and education. It's the Billy Bob who gets drunk and shoots through his home's wall that some cops think of first when it comes to "should the public CCW?"

Just to end on a positive, pro-LEO note, I have to mention something. Ironically (despite the fierce debate this subject can produce) it was an LEO and SWAT officer (also former USMC) who first encouraged me to get a CCW (before I even owned a single gun). He told me it was my job to protect myself and family- not the police. He explained 911 can arrive too late, and I shouldn't blame the police for that... that we all need to accept personal responsibility for our self-defense.

I think there are many good pro-CCW LEOs, its usually the anti-gun ones who are the loudest, most ignorant, and unpleasant... which unfortunately can give all police a bad rep.

 

[Jenrick]

I think you find a lot of times the anti-LEO's also tend to be much higher in the ranks. Administrators and senior officers get caught up in the liability trap. To their mind if the law abiding citizens don't/can't own guns, then only bad guys will have guns, making officer involved shootings less of a hassle. Those of us in the trenches that deal with the community nightly almost always wish the public was armed.

I'd would love to go to a shooting, and stand around while homicide does it's thing after someone tries to rob an armed citizen, versus going to 3 or 4 robbery calls after the suspect is on a roll and jacking people left and right that can't defend themselves. I tell everyone I deal with that I support the idea of CCW's, and I think it's a great idea. If you're willing to jump through the hoops necessary to qualify for a CHL in Texas, you're obviously not a bad guy.

-Jenrick

 

[TallPine]

I'm just not sure it is a good idea to go asking a LEO his/her opinions about armed citizens out of the clear blue - which means you're not going to find out what they think unless they bring it up somehow.

 

[crankshop1000]

Some people could say the same thing about wanting to be a LEO. Opinions...