IPSC Production Pistol. Comments?

[Maximalist]

Hi there.

Just wanted to ask some advice regarding a pistol for IPSC Production.
Right now I'm considering four options. This is what I've gathered from reviews only, feel free to rant & comment if you disagree. I've only been able to hold the Sphinx & the P226 in real life.

SIG P226 Elite Stainless
Pros: Fairly heavy, Good trigger, allows me to shoot a special kind of competition limited to police issued weapons. Cheap magazines.
Cons: Expensive, Parts & service by mail only, feels very tall.

Spinx SDP Full size steel.
Pros: Very heavy, Takes shadow magazines, Good trigger, easy to clean: Parts & service easily accessible.
Cons: Expensive.

Tanfooglio Stock II
Pros: Fairly heavy, Bull Barrel, Tight fit from start, Parts & service easily accessible.
Cons: Crap trigger, Rather Expensive.

Walther PPQ M2 5 inch.
Pros: Very good stock trigger, Longest sight radius, cheapest of the 4.
Cons: Plastic lightness recoil? Very expensive magazines. Parts & service by mail only.

None of these will be for concealed carry or home defense.


Other options that I've rules out:
Glocks as It feels like the grip design was created specifically to cause me discomfort. no other firearm is even close.
XDMs, Interesting, but hard to find in Sweden, despite being an European gun.
CZs, I already own a stock Shadow, but it has been modified to SAO. And I understand that SAO guns are banned from production.
Beretta P4X Storm, Interesting, but cant find a seller who will import it.
Sig P320, Interesting, but cant find a seller who will import it.

 

[Zerodefect]

Doesn't really matter if you're new to IPSC production, but the DA/SA pistols that you listed, will absolutely get smoked by the Walther PPQ. The rules are clear, DA/SA pistols must start decocked in DA mode. That's a major disadvantage.

Since you ruled out Glock, I usually might recommend an adjustable Gen 4 grip version with the trigger guard undercut, that leaves the PPQ and HK VP9. Neither of which is any better, but if they shoot better for you, so be it. The Walther wins this one.

 

[David E]

Ditto

If the "police guns only" competition is really important to you, then the Sig.

You can master the DA/SA pull and transition, as has been proven, but it'll take significant practice.

 

[tarosean]

Doesn't really matter if you're new to IPSC production, but the DA/SA pistols that you listed, will absolutely get smoked by the Walther PPQ. The rules are clear, DA/SA pistols must start decocked in DA mode. That's a major disadvantage.

Stop reading internet hoopla.

In this years USPSA production nationals 7 of the top 10 finishers were DA/SA
Just about the same break down for IPSC Nationals this year too..

 

[tarosean]

Stock II is the current hotness in the USA competition world right now.

Ease of parts would be my priority #1

 

[Zerodefect]

Stop reading internet hoopla.

In this years USPSA production nationals 7 of the top 10 finishers were DA/SA
Just about the same break down for IPSC Nationals this year too..

Yeah, that'll help the local guys out.

It's a handicap for everyone else not in the top 10. If you want an olde handicapped gun, that's fine. But don't tell people it's going to complete with the striker pistols fairly.

 

[lifesizepotato]

Besides the fact that DA/SA can clearly be competitive if you actually train with it, don't forget that every shot after the first will be a superior SA pull.

I didn't know the Sphinx SDP Production was available yet, though. I don't think I see any on Gunbroker.

 

[barnbwt]

Yeah, just fire your first round into the dirt as a matter of course

"Beretta P4X Storm, Interesting, but cant find a seller who will import it."
That's a shame, as I think the PX4 has easily the most comfortable grip of any of the double-stack 9mm's I've messed with. Quite comfortable recoil as well, even in 40S&W, and I imagine the 9mm is even tamer. As far as triggers, is there any reason you can't simply disable the DA mode on a gun and run it as a SAO? Not really a 'mod' to my way of thinking seeing as all these guns have DAO as a factory option.

TCB

 

[earplug]

Visit local matches

See what others are using and what type of support is available for the various weapons used.
Factor in your grip, finger length, what is available for aftermarket parts?

 

[tarosean]

It's a handicap for everyone else not in the top 10. If you want an olde handicapped gun, that's fine. But don't tell people it's going to complete with the striker pistols fairly.

I take it you dont compete? Even though there has been a trend away from poly pistols over the years. There are far too many other variables that separate the top from your average club shooter and it has nothing to do with the trigger type.

That said. You even had the heads of Glock, Springfield and Smith and Wesson convince the USPSA president to make a weight limited production class so they could be competitive in. Hence the Provisional class of Carry Optics being born.

FWIW I shoot a CZ in Limited, but started competitive shooting with a Glock 17.

 

[tarosean]

I didn't know the Sphinx SDP Production was available yet, though. I don't think I see any on Gunbroker.

OP is in Sweden.

 

[lifesizepotato]

OP is in Sweden.

Oh, duh! Can't believe I missed his location. Too bad, I've been eagerly awaiting the US release of the steel SDP Productions.

 

[ny32182]

IPSC Production rules are slightly different than USPSA. Due to the first round trigger pull 5# requirement or whatever it is, DA/SA guns have what is perceived as an unfair advantage especially in IPSC.

In the US, USPSA rules don't have the minimum first pull requirements. Still, Production nationals hasn't been won with a striker gun in half a decade. Striker guns can be competitive in the US though.

Tanfoglio has the best support. They are already built with competition in mind as a top priority. They know everyone who buys a competition framed gun is going to go through and do their own trigger anyway, and they offer factory race parts that are technically legal in production. If you are not in the US, you can even get the factory "Extreme" model that has all the parts installed and tuned straight from the factory. So.. some don't think it is right, but it is what it is; if you shoot a Stock 2 or 3, you can have what is basically a 44oz race gun that is legal in Production. That is the way to go if you are dedicated to the division and don't mind dropping top coin for the division.

That said, almost any full size gun that you practice with can be plenty competitive if you are up to the task.

 

[ny32182]

Also, when I switched from striker to DA/SA for competition, it took me longer to adjust and become proficient with the single action trigger than the double... your mileage may vary.

 

[Maximalist]

Thank you to all who replied. Especially ny32182. The IPSC/USPSA diffrence in 1st round trigger pull explains it all. Thats why there are so many DA/SA guns beeing used in Europe I suppose. Having a striker fired gun would almost be the equivelent of fireing all rounds DA.
For now, I think it stands between a Steel Sphinx SDP and maybe a Stock II Tanfoglio with a fancy trigger. I could get an Extreme I suppose, then again, they are way to ugly.

 

[ATLDave]

Everything that ny32182 and tarosean said.

 

[Jim Watson]

Sig (and HK) specialist Bruce Gray once said that shooting a P226 in Production was like "dryfiring with noise."

I have one set up for IDPA by Mr Gray and it is a very smooth DA/SA. My main difficulty was getting used to the slide stop which is very different from 1911 or CZ.

 

[ATLDave]

Maybe this will be helpful. This is someone's attempt at identifying the pistols used by the top 25 shooters at the 2015 USPSA Production Nationals:

1 Ben Stoeger - Tanfoglio
2 Robert Vogel - Glock
3 Nils Jonasson - Glock
4 Alex Gutt - Tanfoglio
5 JJ Racaza - Tanfoglio
6 Ljubisa Momcilovic - CZ
7 Rob Leatham - Springfield
8 Max Michel Jr. - SIG Sauer
9 Matthew Mink - CZ
10 Casey Reed - CZ
11 Shane Coley - Glock
12 Nick Yanutola - Tanfoglio
13 Elias Frangoulis - Springfield XDM
14 Shannon Smith - Glock
15 Robin Sebo - CZ
16 Sal Luna - CZ
17 Brad Engmann - M&P
18 BJ Norris - Beretta
19 Phil Strader - Glock
20 Frank Garcia - Tanfoglio
21 A.J. Stuart - SIG Sauer
22 Matt Hopkins - CZ
23 Mason Lane - SIG Sauer
24 Russell Maskey - Tanfoglio
25 Lee Dotts - CZ

Source: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219115&page=4

I'm not sure that any of those Sigs were 226's.

 

[Maximalist]

Just for the record. I turned my Shadow back into its original DA/SA mode and purchased a Tactical Sports Orange for Standard.

 

[tarosean]

Tactical Sports Orange for Standard.

Congrats.. My TS has been awesome.. Its been one of, if not the best competition gun Ive ever owned. It took me a bit getting used to the size and weight coming from a G35 though.

 

[LiveLife]

purchased a Tactical Sports Orange for Standard.

Congrats!

Late to the thread but my recommendation would have been to use the pistol that you can shoot most accurate fastest.

For IPSC/USPSA matches, FASTER STAGE TIME TRUMPS ACCURACY. Sometimes a fraction of a second is what determines whether a shooter wins the stage or not.

I started shooting USPSA matches with Sig P226 and while I was proficient with the pistol, I got faster stage times with a Glock 17 I never shot. We had many practice range days where we brought our other pistols so we could run the same practice match stages for accuracy and time. For most of the shooters, Glocks ran faster than other factory stock pistols.

It would have been nice to see if you can run the same stage with different pistols to determine which pistol gave you faster stage times.

Holes on target speak volumes. For IPSC/USPSA, faster stage times win.

 

[ny32182]

You need both speed and accuracy to stand up against any real competition in USPSA.

 

[LiveLife]

When we ran different pistols during our range practice days (all day shooting with several thousand rounds with same match stage set up as previous month match), we found our double tap groups were comparable enough to score the same but our stage times varied.

So in the end, we determined the pistols with faster stage times were the deciding factor.

Before we ran the practice match stages, we often had different preconceived notions as to which pistols were better for match shooting but most of the times, stock Glocks produced faster stage times than other pistols shot by match shooters who did not compete with Glocks.

To me, holes on target AND the timer don't lie.

 

[tarosean]

You need both speed and accuracy to stand up against any real competition in USPSA.

Might want to listen to him.... I wont drop his name here... but he is pretty darn gooder..

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I was surprised by the brand counts of the top 25...

Tanfoglio - 6
Glock -5
CZ - 7
Springfield - 1
Springfield XDM - 1
SIG - 3
S&W - 1
Beretta - 1

CZ-pattern guns make up a hair more than 1/2 of the total!