IPSC Production Pistol. Comments?

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Of the guns the OP listed I fell the Stock 2 in a good leap in head of the others.

I don't know if the CZ ACCU-Shadow would IPSC or not but that would be another good option.
 
tarosean said:
ny32182 said:
bds said:
For IPSC/USPSA matches, FASTER STAGE TIME TRUMPS ACCURACY
You need both speed and accuracy to stand up against any real competition in USPSA.
Might want to listen to him.... I wont drop his name here... but he is pretty darn gooder..
I was not disagreeing with ny32182 but rather staying on topic to OP's question of how to determine which pistols were better for match shooting among the choices offered - kinda moot at this point as OP already selected his match pistol.
Maximalist said:
Right now I'm considering four options. This is what I've gathered from reviews only, feel free to rant & comment if you disagree.

- SIG P226 Elite Stainless
- Spinx SDP Full size steel
- Tanfooglio Stock II
- Walther PPQ M2 5 inch

... purchased a Tactical Sports Orange for Standard
bds said:
my recommendation would have been to use the pistol that you can shoot most accurate fastest.
What we found shooting USPSA was due to the scoring system, often quicker stage times with more accuracy penalties won the stages over slower stage times with less accuracy penalty. Many of the shooters disagreed with this but it's simply how the IPSC/USPSA scoring is set. ny32182 even posted this on another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10122931#post10122931
ny32182 said:
Most shooters who are scoring well even at the state match type regional level are able to calibrate their accuracy/speed balance around the scoring model of the day. Just because they may drop a few more points than some shooters and still win with a 0.5 second penalty doesn't mean they CAN'T shoot better points if that is what is going to be needed to win with a 1 second penalty.
When I spoke to some of the regional shooters over two decades ago, what they told me was that most pistols have enough inherent mechanical accuracy for action pistol type matches and the pistol that I could shoot fastest would be more beneficial to improve stage times.

There was a shooter who would come to our matches from time to time with a revolver and moon clips then literally leave us in the dust in terms of accuracy and speed. He never missed yet shot his revolver faster than we shot our autoloaders. I became an instant student and what he shared with me was that it didn't matter what pistol I shot but rather, deliberate practice and trigger time that mattered. Instead of front sight flash, he said to watch the target and imagine the double tap holes appear and practice until they did. He said for him, shooting was no longer a competition with other shooters but he only competed with himself.

I no longer compete but for me, as ny32182 posted, accuracy is everything but speed is important, particularly for defensive shooting.

As to OP, I believe it is beneficial for the match shooter to be equipped with a pistol that could be shot accurately fast. But level of accuracy needed to win stages to accompany fast stage times will come with deliberate practice and trigger time.
 
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I am Nick on the list above.
If I just had a table full of guns and wanted to evaluate which I was best with out of the gate, having no practice with any of them (and had equal gear for all of them), personally, I would run a variety of shorter standard drills rather than an entire stage. A lot more variables come into play over the course of a stage, and I think you'd want to eliminate as many as possible just to narrow it down to the gun if that was your goal.

My comment from the other thread there was meant to point out that the very best shooters CAN do anything, and will adjust their shooting around whatever scoring model is in front of them.
 
Yes, I would agree with different shooting drills to compare pistols (we did that on any of our range practice days whenever someone bought a new pistol) but on our particular match practice days where we brought our other pistols, the entire pistol range was set up for USPSA stage mock ups and there was no free bay available for separate shooting drills.

We felt running the same stage with different pistols gave us a comparison (ultimately stage score is what counts, right?) and allowed us to quickly group pistols we shot better/faster vs worse/slower. There was no limit to how many times we could run the stage with the same pistol so we could rule out human factor if we made an error during the stage.

Within a few hours, most shooters had identified the best shooting pistols and we got to keep shooting the same stage we memorized for more detailed comparison. For the most part, we were trying to find pistols that we could shoot faster than our match pistols. From these comparison shooting days, some of the match shooters did replace their match pistols as they got measurable faster stage times that improved the score.
 
I don't doubt that some guns allow the shooter to be faster and more accurate -- but that's arguably a very PERSONAL thing. What works for them might not work for you.

A related discussion showed up in another section on this forum, where they were discussing recent changes to IDPA Point Down penalties... several felt that increasing the penalties helped the slower shooter. Other disagreed.

In my experience, the best shooters seldom had that many points down, so from my point of view, it not a big deal.

I don't do USPSA (or know much about IPSC) but Bruce Gray, of Gray Guns, who was once a pretty good competitor -- and may still be, for all I know -- and who still tunes the guns of other pretty good competitors has said -- it may be on his website -- that he and others have found that being fast and accurate is important, but being fast ELSEWHERE (as you go through course of fire, moving from target to target, position to position) was where the biggest point advantage was to be found.

When you shoot production, perhaps this isn't as big an issue in the other divisions? As I said, I'm not familiar with USPSA or IPSC.

When I've watched some VERY GOOD shooters perform (and I can't think of a better term), they seem a bit like time and motion study experts who were also ballet-trained: no wasted motion, no inefficient behaviors. You don't hear folks talk about THAT aspect of competiion much here or by the folks who compete in USPSA or IDPA. (I haven't shot competitively in several years so I haven't had a chance to put it to the test.)
 
Movement is a very big deal in all divisions in USPSA, and is certainly more of an overall scoring component there than it is in IDPA.
 
In which case you should be testing shoes as well as guns, n'est-ce pas ?

A valuable skill in IDPA, not needed in USPSA, is arriving at the next Point of Cover well enough behind cover to not get a PE, far enough around to see the target.
 
You don't hear folks talk about THAT aspect of competiion much here or by the folks who compete in USPSA or IDPA.

Probably cause a whole lot of people think equipment will buy your win... :)

When the truth of the matter is functional reliable equipment no matter the brand name, is just as important as being able to call your shots and shoot on the move.
 
When I've watched some VERY GOOD shooters perform (and I can't think of a better term), they seem a bit like time and motion study experts who were also ballet-trained: no wasted motion, no inefficient behaviors. You don't hear folks talk about THAT aspect of competiion much here or by the folks who compete in USPSA or IDPA. (I haven't shot competitively in several years so I haven't had a chance to put it to the test.)

I would conjecture that you don't see that discussion HERE, on THR, because THR is a gun discussion board, with a small subforum re: competition. If you go to the dedicated competition fora, you'll see much more discussion on efficient movement.

Here's a current thread from Brian Eno's board that talks purely about footwork and gets down to very specific arguments about what kind of step (crossover or hop) to take leaving a position: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=222829
 
ATLDave said:
I would conjecture that you don't see that discussion HERE, on THR, because THR is a gun discussion board, with a small subforum re: competition. If you go to the dedicated competition fora, you'll see much more discussion on efficient movement.

You may be right, but I think you might be surprised at how many of those involved in these discussions DO play the IDPA or USPSA games.

A better explanation may be they're more like ME than than they're like the very best "Master Level" shooters in the gun games:my (and by inference their) skills and knowledge haven't advanced to the level where they're worried about economy of motion!! :)
 
Hey, I'm just a b-class hack myself.

Still very interesting to watch/listen/read very high level shooters break stuff down.

I don't play football AT ALL, but I can still enjoy the Sunday shows talking about so-and-so's swim move or this cornerback's hip flip or that QB's read progression.
 
I think we are really drifting from the OP where question was asked which pistol would be better for IPSC/USPSA Production Division among a list of pistols along with "feel free to rant & comment if you disagree".

All the other factors that address efficiency of movement will improve the score REGARDLESS of the pistol but won't address the OP question.

As to the OP question of WHICH pistol would be better for match shooting, IMHO the only way you can determine is to actually run the match stage with different pistols. I agree with Nick/ny32182 that shooting drills can provide comparison data but actually running the match stage to factor in draw from holster, mag changes, etc. may benefit determining which pistol would produce faster stage times enough to improve score.
 
In which case you should be testing shoes as well as guns, n'est-ce pas ?

No need.. everyone knows Solomons are what you wear...:evil:


I think we are really drifting from the OP where question was asked which pistol would be better for IPSC/USPSA Production Division

Heck even the OP jumped to Standard/Limited class. Far different than Production level guns.

Your timed splits and transitions with a particular gun will tell the truth about how well you shoot em.
 
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