Iran is only a few months away from creating an atomic bomb

[shootinstudent]

I cannot discuss this with someone who's head is so far out of reality and who responds to statements I make with statements about unrelated issues as if I asked a question.

Ah ha. Well, apparently it's so obvious that you felt the need to spend most of your post simply asserting that fact. I'll take "debate club tactics" over that, so yes...we're through with that.

...pants on fire.

That just really makes you more....credible?

 

[AZLibertarian]

A few months will pass before this thread gets back on topic. We can then look back and see what transpired.

I'm betting that little more than rhetoric will be aimed at Iran prior to March, 2006. Israeli conventional attacks seem unlikely in that they would not greatly hurt the Iranian program. An Israeli nuclear offensive would only take place when Israel had no other options.

I'm quite late to this debate, and have skipped much of the circular debate about the Palestinians and Israel, however with that said....

I recently ran across these two stories, which indicate that Israel is much more serious about preemptively taking out Iran's nukes than most of the American public believes.

Such an attack would probably lead to eventual in-kind retaliation. The United States will only act overtly through the United Nothing.

I'm not so sure. Here's a link to a theory that says that, Israel may drag us into the fight willingly or unwillingly.

All real actions will either be bluster, or covert in nature. If covert, we won't be discussing them on this board. Of course, that assumes that the anti-U.S. New York Times doesn't reveal our actions in order to further hurt Bush and our military.

The Israelis are also worried about chemical and biologically tipped shorter range missiles. The Iranians have historically financed conventional missile attacks. The worry is that an all out attack by scores of missiles could overwhelm the Israeli Arrow defensive system. It seems to me that the Iranians could inflict a good bit of damage using third parties, without envoking an all out nuclear exchange.

This item (note the date) got a little mileage at the time, but was widely forgotten about a week after the announcement. Israel is not the only one rattling their sabers. Although the administration has quite a bit of work to do to prepare America for a pre-emptive nuclear use, if I was Iranian, I'd be moving away from anything related to their nuclear program.

 

[Keith Wheeler]

...

The same spin goes on against Arabs. It is something that all politicians do. And I think it's bad in every case. My point is, what's going to happen when the spin in the West (as it has been for most of history) returns to being unhappy with or disinterested in protecting Jews and Israel?

You'll be jumping for joy? Your half-hidden pseudo-academic attempts to "just state the facts" but then constantly attack Israel, Jews (not the same thing you know) is sad.

Why don't you just be honest yourself and let us all know who you are and where you really stand on this?

Garbage like the above paragraph -- where you are basically saying "I think it is bad in every case...but it's so much worse when the Jews do it" is pathetic.

The "High Road" isn't just about vocabulary and playing academic games, part of being a gentleman, sir, is being able to stand up and proclaim who you are. It's kind of like those Palestinian "activists", the ones wear masks while carrying their AKs. By G-d I hope if it ever comes to that I am man enough to admit who I am while carrying a gun. Some people don't.

I'm an American. I'm a Jew. I don't hate Muslims. The Palestinians 1) were NEVER an independent nation, and 2) have insitutionalized horrible violence against civilians. Yes, there are some whacko Jews who have gone on rampages (there are whackos everywhere, some hide on internet boards and won't admit their background or names). There have been awful things done by individual Israeli soldiers (some of them Bedouins! wow, imagine that). But Palestinian violence is institutionalized. It is their method of waging war for a nation that never existed.

 

[shootinstudent]

You'll be jumping for joy? Your half-hidden pseudo-academic attempts to "just state the facts" but then constantly attack Israel, Jews (not the same thing you know) is sad.

I think it's sad that you're so eager to see hatred that you are accusing me of this. I have not made one single anti-semitic remark, and I have and do condemn all religious hatred, period. If you want to claim otherwise, I'd like to see it posted.

The Palestinians 1) were NEVER an independent nation, and 2) have insitutionalized horrible violence against civilians. Yes, there are some whacko Jews who have gone on rampages (there are whackos everywhere, some hide on internet boards and won't admit their background or names). There have been awful things done by individual Israeli soldiers (some of them Bedouins! wow, imagine that). But Palestinian violence is institutionalized. It is their method of waging war for a nation that never existed.

Interesting. They institutionalized violence, yet they have never had any state institutions with which to institutionalize any such practice.

There are radical Jewish groups who advocate expelling or killing all Palestinians. The fact that Israel's government stops these people is comendable and a true testament to democracy...large groups of people given freedom try to stop these kinds of things. That's why I support democratic reform in Palestine.

Here's the main point: When a radical acts for either side, that radical should be punished personally and in no other way in every single case. To do anything else is to allow radicals to create "collective responsibility", which is a defective idea that allows people justify bombing apartment buildings and bus stops in order to retaliate for this or that criminal action. It is wrong no matter who does it, and blaming all Palestinians for the violence of radicals is a result of precisely the same mindset.

What I would like to see is a fair solution for both sides, so that the peaceful people of Israel can have security and the Palestinian people can have the right to self determination. Your rhetoric about the Palestinians "never having a state" is irrelevant; the Israelis had no nation in the region either (at least, not in the past 2000 years). The Palestinians are a distinct people, with a distinct culture and language tied directly to that piece of land, and all those who have committed no crimes have every right to govern themselves there just as much as all those Israelis who have built Israel do.

Here's the difference between you and me on this point: You post a claim about Israel, I debate the facts and I don't think it's because you're Jewish or anything else that you make that claim. Indeed, I'm really not interested in what your personal motivations are. On the other hand, you're in a pretty clear way calling me a liar for not saying I'm muslim.

The "High Road" isn't just about vocabulary and playing academic games, part of being a gentleman, sir, is being able to stand up and proclaim who you are....(there are whackos everywhere, some hide on internet boards and won't admit their background or names)

Given that, which of us is letting personal passions play more of a role in his opinion here? I'm not blaming Jewish culture or Israeli culture or all Israelis for any bad thing any single Israeli has ever done. Can you say the same about your view of Palestinians?