'Iraq shows Kalashnikovs are still the best'

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ak crap

If a russian made Dragunov cannot do under 2 inches I doubt any of the varients can. And the Dragunov is mdified alot for accuracy compared to a regular even more crappy AK.
 
Where do you get the idea that a Dragunov can't do better than 2 MOA? Yes, they do quite a bit better, and will do MOA with match ammo. (which contrary to what John Plaster says, does exist) :rolleyes:

FBMG has an original import Drag, and a Tiger, that will both do better than 2 MOA, any time.

My personal Vepr K, 3gun rifle will do 1 1/2. And I've done 5 inches at 200 yards.

The Saiga .223s that we've sold have all been able to do 2 MOA or better.

Where do people get some of this nonsense? Just because your WASR can't hit the broad side of a barn doesn't make the AK inaccurate.

and:

Have you fired both? Yes, probably more than 99% of the members on this board.

Do you know the difference between acceptance standards in eastern bloc and western bloc armies? Yes.

Can you take them apart, clean them and reasemble them? Yes, in my sleep.

Have you fired them in low light? Yes. I've also used them with NVDs, and run them in 3gun night competitions. Since both guns can be had with irons, mounted lights, or red dot optics, what does this have to do with anything?

Have you fired them while running - no not running and stopping, but firing while running? Yes. Once again more than anyone other than about a dozen members of this board. Most of whom I know, or have at least seen their match scores. *** does running while shooting have to do with anything anyway?

Can you pick up a jammed one and clear it? In my sleep.

There, happy?
 
/*let's not forget that the AK is used by more armies thoughout the world then any other main battle weapon.*/

I wonder if that is out of choice, or out of necessity? It is hard to beat "free" for a price point in equipping your army, especially if their only purpose is to run roughshod over unarmed civilians.

However, a well made AK-47 with ammunition manufactured to the standards of commercial U.S. ammunition might be a silk purse instead of a sow's ear. I don't know how much that adds to the price of the package, but if it gets it up close to American and Western European rifles, we start all over again and see what is available...and around and around...:)
 
V4Vendetta

I played a "VietCong" demo on my computer & the first thing I did after being shot down was to grab a AK & ditch the M16. I did this for several reasons. .....




Edited for family friendliness - BR

I'm speachles. I really am. Sonny were talking in REAL LIFE, not your computer game.

PLEASE tell me you were joking - right?
 
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V4Vendetta

I played a "VietCong" demo on my computer & the first thing I did after being shot down was to grab a AK & ditch the M16. I did this for several reasons. .....

WOW!!!!:banghead: If you are serious than that is all i have to say!


And by the way that game ain't to great, talk about bad AI!
 
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You're all WRONG

Or something like that. I aim with this post to be an equal-opportunity GRUMP, offending everybody with the RUDE QUESTIONS no one wants to hear, not to mention answer.

AK fans:
Now, my only extensive firsthand experience is with a .223 variant, but please tell me-- is there enough room behind the bolt carrier for a fired case, a live round, or a 1/2-inch piece of gravel to get in through the mag well and start rattling around inside the trigger group portion of the receiver?

Is there room for a fired case to lodge between the bolt carrier and the trunnion, on the left side of the receiver?

Have you ever attempted to replicate the silica flour test detailed on the Militec web site?

How is your accuracy? Or do you count on your 4-MOA benched groups gun giving you maybe ONE shot center-of-mass out of your 5-round "field position" groups at 300 yards and call that good? Or is any peripheral hit as good as a center hit? Ever go back and read the Army reports of "most shots are taken at 300 meters or less" and noticed how many of those 300-yard shots are ONE CHANCE ONLY--or in other words, no follow-up shots possible?

AR fans:
The magazine on the AR system is demonstrably more prone to bunged up feed lips than the steel-monster AK system. Do you blame your jams on bad magazines?

There is quite an aftermarket "need", perceived or real is open to debate, for nifty-neato extractors and stronger springs and o-rings and other stuff. Oh, howcome? Or do you blame all those other jams on the ammo?

Have you ever tried to clear a jam that results in the bolt carrier being too far back to separate the upper and lower receivers?

Back to mags--one common misfeed from bad mags is two rounds popping up when the bolt is coming forward. Ever see what happens when the top round's bullet gets jammed against the gas tube? You might be able to replicate this jam by locking the bolt back, turning the rifle upside down, dropping a round in the receiver (up against the bottom of the charging handle), and then releasing the bolt. I've personally seen that type of jam in two different rifles and it locked them up tighter than anything else I've ever seen, certainly at least as badly as the pre-forward assist jams reported from Vietnam in the early years.

For everyone in this argument--the jams I speak of are extremely rare, and so infrequent to be a non-issue for military operations, IMO. The AK suffers, usually, from accuracy/sights issues that make the rare long shots to point targets a problem. You don't always have Arty or Air Support ready when you NEED them. The AR suffers from rare but horribly serious fight-stopping jams that take an inordinate amount of time to clear. With an AK, you can at least take off the receiver cover and remove the op spring and maybe even lever the extractor off of a stuck round to get a pair of pliers in there, or at least reduce the hazard of knocking a round out with a cleaning rod (you DON"T want the weight of the bolt behind such a round!!!)

The "problem" with the AR is not so much the bolt-is-gas-piston system, but the use of a round bolt carrier in a round receiver hole with a few tighter-tolerance bearing points. A pair of rods with springs like the Steyr AUG, or rails and grooves like the AK, would be a much better way to guide the BC inside the receiver. That, and an apparently insurmountable combination of cartridge size and gap sizes around the gas tube and charging handle.

Chamber the AR in the 6.5 Grendel and I'd betcha that bad-magazine double feeds would no longer result in rounds jammed in the gas tube or crammed against the receiver/charging handle above the bolt lugs. Bigger case body.
 
Grump, pretty good equal opportunity rant there. :)

I also like both guns.

But you're wrong about the accuracy of the AK. Americans always judge crappy surplus built AKs against new US production ARs. Compare a new Russian built AK vs. a standard production AR, and there is about one MOA difference in accuracy. Put a red dot optic on the both, and very few shooters are going to be able to tell much difference.

Of course if you take a free floated match AR vs. any AK there is no comparison. But if you put a regular M4 against a Saiga, especially with identical optics, I think you would be surprised. The M4 would win, but not by nearly the margin most people on the internet seem to think.
 
Interesting note on the number of AKs produced, if anyone has seen Nicolas Cage in Lord of War, he plays an arms dealer, if you watch the extras on the DVD, the movie producers found it was more expensive to buy/rent fake AKs than to purchase the real ones!, in the scenes where nicholas Cage is walking through warehouses filled with AKs.. those were real, purchased by the producer from an arms dealer and then sold back at the end of production, if you have not seen Lord of War..see it..its based on a real black market arms dealer and discusses how OUR government allows these dealers to distribute arms to various countries.
 
Quote:
V4Vendetta

I played a "VietCong" demo on my computer & the first thing I did after being shot down was to grab a AK & ditch the M16. I did this for several reasons. .....





I'm speachles. I really am. Sonny were talking in REAL LIFE, not your computer game.

PLEASE tell me you were joking - right?
__________________



RTFM,


Be nice! At least this guy admits it. A lot of guys on these forums clearly base their opinions on video games, "Collateral", "Heat", "24" and so on. The only folks worse than them are the establismentarians who say something is the best because it is the most popular or on the cover of handguns magazine ("Extreme 1911" or " Ultimate CQB AR15."
 
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What I love is the thousand dollar AR on match .223 vs the 350 dollar AK on Wolf surplus.

Oh sure fair fight! My 16.5" Saiga will do 2" on the bench. I say 75% of the problem with the AK's accuracy is a mixture of ammo and poor sights or scopes on the dustcover.

I have seen a PSL on hand rolled match ammo hover around the 1moa barrier, and I -know- there are Dragunovs out there that could do better. The Dragunov and AK only share a similar operating procedure, totally different rifles.
 
What I love is the thousand dollar AR on match .223 vs the 350 dollar AK on Wolf surplus.

One of my favorite comparisons as well, what happen with apples to apples?
"Oh the ar is so great", maybe because

1)It cost three times as much
2)has a match grade barrel
or maybe
3) maybe they are using the top of the line match ammo, not even that blackhills blue box will do just great.

the ak is "crap"

I use the cheapest ammo i can find and the front sight is canted but that is ok it is still a fair comparison, I wonder ehy the ar-15 would win everytime!
 
Yes, I wouldn't mind seeing a head to head comparrison between say a Bushmaster AR and an Arsenal, Global Trades, or Krebs AK that is domestically made. Those are a lot closer to the AR in price.

Fire the AK with the 5.45X39 ammo as well so ballistics will not be a big factor.
 
It's not a fair comparison at all. BUT, most people compare with what is commonly available.


I haven't seen much match-grade 7.62x39mm ammo out there. So one has to kinda/sorta accept that that's part of the whole AK platform (dealing with Wolf/Barnaul/generic)


Certainly things would be different if you handloaded 7.62x39 (using .311 match grade bullets) in brass cases with a BR primer and good powder. Of course, this would also have to be fired out of a VEPR or Saiga which in my opinion, both have the finest AK barrels out there.


Most of the Romanian AK's I've seen don't even have a crown on them. It is a severely rounded end usually with uneven chrome. That's why those rifles shoot shotgun patterns.


The best way is to compare dollar to dollar. Find a $700 AR then compare it to an Arsenal AK (around $700). Shoot military ball in each (M855 for the AR, and w/e brass cased milsurp x39 for the AK) and see how they do. Use a scope on each.


The cold hard reality is that both rifles SUCK, because each was designed to be effective with either full auto fire or burst fire. Hypothetically speaking here, if you told Stoner or Kalashnikov that they must design a rifle that will be semi-auto only, and they had full say over the rifle, mags and cartridge...DO you think they'd design the exact same rifles with those cartridges? I seriously doubt it. They'd have to go back to a doctrine of semi-auto fire and how that relates to making hits and wound performance.


Military doctrine has played a huge role on the creation of those rifles. They are best suited for military needs, not civilian needs. It is our citizenry that has shown how effective these select fire weapons can be in semi-auto mode with our shooting sports.
 
But you're wrong about the accuracy of the AK. Americans always judge crappy surplus built AKs against new US production ARs. Compare a new Russian built AK vs. a standard production AR, and there is about one MOA difference in accuracy. Put a red dot optic on the both, and very few shooters are going to be able to tell much difference.

Correia is right on here. The practical differences in accuracy from field positions is much smaller than what you can do comparing a $900 AR to a $400 AK from the bench with match grade Black Hills against steel cased Russian FMJ. The simple fact of the matter is that if you can't hit your target with an AK, it is probably the indian, not the arrow.
I imagine tragically inaccurate AKs are about as common as tragically unreliable ARs--the vast majority lie somewhere in between. My AK had terrible trigger slap but still managed to print 5 shot 4 MOA 100 yard groups. This is a $279 WASR. Adding more comfortable furniture, a better trigger, and Mojo sights increased accuracy to easily gallon water jug from sitting position at 150 yards. Adding a PK-AS-V red dot further improved accuracy to the point that I am pretty sure keeping all or most of them COM at 300 yards won't be too difficult with a little practice.
In truth, most AKs are as accurate as they need to be to do their job to the limits of the effective range for any intermediate cartridge, including the 5.56. Too many people tend to regard the AK as merely a cheap plinking gun instead of a legitimate weapons system, but it deserves as much respect in this area as the AR. The AK is a very capable system to anyone who bothers to practice and learn it--the fact that you are incapable of using it to its abilities because you fail to put forth the effort, or the fact that certain militant religious zealots or Counterstrike wannabes can barely manage spray and pray, does not negate this very simple fact.
I'll leave the AR bashing for those with more experience with it but I know I am very comfortable with the Kalashnikov. My WASR may not be the best representative of the family, but I can hit what I want with it. I know its capabilities. I've abused it more than it deserves to be, I know where it stops, I can and have taken it apart to replace FCGs, pistol grips, buttstocks, furniture, and sights. I may not be the best in the world with it, but I feel more confident with it than with any other rifle I have experience with and it is the one I will reach for if trouble comes looking for me. Those who underestimate the rifle's capabilities in the hands of anyone who has put forth the slighest iota of effort to become profeccient with it might be in for a rude awakening.
 
dartos said:
if you have not seen Lord of War..see it..its based on a real black market arms dealer and discusses how OUR government allows these dealers to distribute arms to various countries.

First, I don't where you are posting from; but the United States and UK have THE most stringent arms exports laws of any country in the world. Even IANSA agrees on that fact - the problem is not OUR government; but the governments of China, Russia, etc.

Second, the proper place for that discussion is the Legal & Political forum, not this thread.

Grump said:
There is quite an aftermarket "need", perceived or real is open to debate, for nifty-neato extractors and stronger springs and o-rings and other stuff. Oh, howcome? Or do you blame all those other jams on the ammo?

A 20" rifle will run just fine on its stock extractor and extractor spring sans O-ring. Cut the barrel to 14.5" without changing anything else so that the port pressure jumps from 15k psi to 30k psi and dwell time is cut in half and you are going to have problems.

I don't know if it is fair to complain that a rifle isn't great because you can't change the barrel and gas system of the original design without having to make minor changes to the extractor group. Especially when the design change (gas port located at carbine length) isn't a great design to begin with.
 
random observations

Ever see an AK47 magazine with damaged feed lips? I have not
and I would hate to meet whatever is capable of doing it.
First think Mikhail got right: most automatic or autoloading gun
failures can be traced to damaged magazines, and the usual
culprit is bent or sprung feed lips. AK47 feed lips are way over
engineered, and that is good.

Second thing he got right is the bolt should not touch the inside
of the receiver: the AK bolt rides on two rails and the piston of the
bolt carrier and there is a lot of places for dirt to go. Compare that
to the Reising 50 that failed the Marines at Gaudalcanal.

Kalashnikovs are not the best for all purposes but they are good.

Lord of War runs at times like an advertisement for the AK47; too
bad the specs on the DVD illustrates a LEFT-HANDED AK. Duh.
Real reel attention to detail.

The reel life gunrunner in Lord of War, while identified as an American
in the movie, is based on two east bloc real life gun runners, a Russian
and a Ukranian. Lotsa issues glossed over to keep the movie moving.

Problem with IANSA is that rather than focus on illegal trafficking in
weapons of war between nations, Rebecca Peters wants to do an
Australian strangehold on private ownership inside the USA, a waste
and diversion for what purpose?
 
I say 75% of the problem with the AK's accuracy is a mixture of ammo and poor sights or scopes on the dustcover.

My first 10 shots with an AK-type were with a Valmet in .223, shooting USGI M193 ammo, and with a first-generation Aimpoint on the receiver cover.

I still have the cutout target center. In fading light just after sunset, it's a 10-round, 2-inch group. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

The practical differences in accuracy from field positions is much smaller than what you can do comparing a $900 AR to a $400 AK from the bench with match grade Black Hills against steel cased Russian FMJ. The simple fact of the matter is that if you can't hit your target with an AK, it is probably the indian, not the arrow.

I'm getting sick of this low-expectations chant that makes excuses for "accuracy" that's no better than the width of your entire front sight. Talk to my teenage son about field positions and whether 4 MOA (or worse) accuracy is going to be good enough beyond CQB to 100 yards--he regularly beans 2-liter soda bottles at a measured 150 yards, standing, with the first or second shot. Lessee, 4 MOA times 150 yards equals a 6-inch group, so to get that first-round hit you would have to hold with ZERO shooter aiming error.

No thanks. The wobble area of "field positions" is EXACTLY the reason why a combat weapon should have no worse than 3 MOA accuracy, and preferably 2 MOA or better. With 2 MOA, that 150-yard headshot, which you will most likely get to try only once, is still possible with your combined wobble area/trigger control error of 3 inches instead of zero inches.

Inside 50 yards, yes, about all you need to do is have ammo that goes "bang."

So, how are the Wolf ammo AK groups, compared with the Wolf ammo AR groups? Out of the AR, I was getting 3 MOA, but that rifle also can't seem to do 1 MOA with match ammo, either...:confused:
 
My first 10 shots with an AK-type were with a Valmet in .223, shooting USGI M193 ammo, and with a first-generation Aimpoint on the receiver cover.

I still have the cutout target center. In fading light just after sunset, it's a 10-round, 2-inch group. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

The Valmet is the cream of the crop of AK style rifles though. The Finns take extra special care making those. Would a $300 WASR do that?
 
Who cares? A $300 AR wouldn't do it either...

And Grump, is it just a coincidence that you managed to cut and paste while avoiding the part where I said a $40 upgrade in sights and a new trigger allowed me to shoot gallon water jugs at 150 yards from a sitting position? Or that adding a red dot allowed me score two out of three on a 6 inch wide peice of firewood at a laser verified 300 yards--and it wasn't even sighted in all the way?
 
The Valmet's dust cover is a unique design and should not be considered a "standard" AR for the sake of this discussion. Its as much AK as the Galil is.Its like using a gas piston AR to make assumptions about ALL ARs.
 
Apparently, in 47 years of military service (Since the first SAC Air Police got AR15s), it has never fired a shot without jamming, and never killed a single person.

All those casualties in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Malaysia (SAS), et al, were caused by troops throwing away ARs and grabbing AKs.

The obvious solution to all the third world nations and Soviet lackeys losing wars is to STOP USING AKs. THEY ARE TOO GOOD!

THEY should adopt AR15s, so that all the rifles jam and fail to kill, then they can win by the moral superiority of their Marxist purity.
 
The Valmet's dust cover is a unique design and should not be considered a "standard" AR for the sake of this discussion.

Tell me how it's different? Slips into a little slot up front, and is held in place by the back end of the recoil spring assembly, like every other one I've seen.

MTMilitiaman:

Was your sights upgrade to put them on the receiver, the receiver cover, or just replacing them up there above the trunnion? Your results are good, just hard to tell how you got them.

Pardon me to challenging the scope sights on the dustcover argument--no--EXCUSE for poor accuracy in AKs. If your sight upgrade was something like a MOJO put on the rear of the receiver cover, you would have proven my point about the second half of the earlier excuse.

As for the trigger, the only way I've seen a trigger truly improve accuracy was when the original either A. was so stiff your muscles disturbed the aim while cramming it down (15 pounds plus for most of us!), or there was so much overtravel in a handgun that the aim was disturbed during the lock/barrel time. Careful shots off the bench when accuracy testing don't require all that good of a trigger, IME.
 
I just replaced the standard rear sight with a Mojo ghost ring. Total cost for that was about $45, shipped and about 15 minutes with a slotted screwdriver to install.

You can very easily improve the trigger pull on your AK. The TAPCO G2 cost me about $50 with the detent plate and dropped right in. The trigger pull is now actually very decent. I don't have a scale but I would guess it is around 3 to 4 pounds and not half bad in terms of creep or overtravel. My brother has a Red Star Arms in his which actually makes it as good as any tuned Remington 700 trigger in the house right now, but it cost twice as much as the TAPCO unit.
 
The Valmets much like the KREBs series of rifles fit far more tightly into that receiver than anything else. Your average AK's dust cover rattles around a fair bit once the finish wears off.

Even then the Krebs rifles dont hold zero too tightly, nor do most of the Valmets or so I am told. The only proper place for an AK's optic is on the accessory rail.

My saiga does 2.5-3moa on cheapo communist overrun(wolf) and surplus. Nobody here has handrolled 7.62x39mm, and thus nobody has fired it off a bench with handloads. Theres no accurate 7.62x39mm for sale to the general public, and thus it gets difficult to guage accuracy.

Consider the CZ-527, this bolt action rifle is capable of shooting sub 1 moa on .223 off sandbags. However the 7.62x39mm version is really only capable of about 1.5-2moa off sandbags. Even then there are Semi automatic AKs out there that do 2moa and below without problem, so how is it suddenly inaccurate now?


In other news, Wolf 5.56 does 2moa out've a Bushmaster.
 
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