Iraq soldiers carrying a more SAWs than M4s?

[Lobotomy Boy]

I've noticed that in a lot of the photos coming out of Iraq this week there seems to be more soldiers carrying SAWs than M4s. I've been surprised at the ratio of machine guns to battle rifles. This morning I saw a photo of five Marines, four of them carrying SAWs (or the original European version, the 242 or whatever it is), and only one carrying an M4. Is this just a result of the nature of the current operation or does this signify some sort of change in battle tactics?

 

[ny32182]

If you were the reporter, who would you rather stand next to: the guy with the M4, or the guy with the SAW?

 

[45R]

So thats why CNN and FOX screw up reporting. They cant hear anything after a few bursts from the SAW.

 

[Coronach]

Just a guess, as I'm not exactly up on MOUT tactics, but...

I'm imagining that the guys with the M4s would be out in front with the SAW guys further behind...that way when they encounter resistance, they just hold up, pull in the bulk of the force (including the SAW) and then start hammering at the enemy.

If anything resembling this is true, if I'm the reporter, I know I'd stick tight to the SAW, because:

1. Scouting out in front armed with a camera and a microphone is, well, stupid.

2. When something worthwhile does happen, the SAW gunners will almost certainly be in the fray...as opposed to holding a flank allowing my cameraman to get some lovely shots of an empty alley

3. Commanders probably like this as well, because it keeps the reporters out from underfoot as much as possible.

Just a guess.

Mike

 

[NMshooter]

Most of those guys over there have M-16A2 rifles. Heck, I think there are still Air Force units, at least Guard and Reserve, that still issue the original M-16.

When I was in our unit had one with the green stock, handguards, and pistol grip.

That one ended up in some SP unit's collection.

 

[psyopspec]

If I had to guess, I'd say yes, there are more SAWs than M-4s in Iraq, but not due to a tactical decision. The M-16 is still the standard issue rifle for most soldiers, and like many units, mine (on the company level) had 4 SAWS (one per detachment), and no M-4s. However, I doubt they're being consolidated in this particular operation. Previous posters have addressed realistic possibilities about why you saw what you saw when you saw the SAWs, and to answer your particular question, I would say it's niether the result of the current operation, nor a sign of tactical change. If it signifies anything, it's just what the photog happend to capture at that particular time and place.

 

[Cosmoline]

If I were going into that hell on Earth, where enemies are liable to be dug in and know the turf very well, I'd want something with as much "gravitas" as possible while still being portable. A SAW is simply the most potent small arm an average soldier can get ahold of. It makes up for the 5.56's lack of punch through good accuracy and excellent capacity and rate of fire.

 

[Langenator]

You shouldn't be seeing any M-4s with Marine units AFAIK...Marines use the M-16A4, as do a lot of Army units. The A4 is the current production version of the M-16.

A lot of Infantry and Cav units (including the ones I've seen on the tube in Fallujah) have M-4s. In my experience in MOUT, whenever possible you leave the SAWs out of the room clearing teams, because that big weapon slows them down. This means there are more of them, relative to other weapons, outside the buildings where the camera guys see them.

 

[psyopspec]

Cosmoline

A SAW is simply the most potent small arm an average soldier can get ahold of.

Nothing against your assessment, but the 203 I carried served me quite well, and I never found myself wishing on a SAW.

 

[Jeff White]

The M249 SAW is issued on the basis of two per rifle squad in Army Light Infantry units. Some Combat Support and Combat Service Support units were issued the M249 as an interim replacement for the M60 machine gun due to the M240 being in short supply. So it's a misconception that there are more SAWs then rifles in service.

It's quite possible that the camera crews taking the pictures in question are moving with SBF (support by fire) elements that would be organized to support the assault elements. The commander will normally put the platoon's two machine guns and maybe one SAW per squad and a couple M203s into the SBF. Naturally what goes into the SBF is METT-T dependent.

Jeff

 

[Citadel99]

I'd take a SAW over my M4 any day of the week. But, they don't let us officer types tote them around...

Mark

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Thanks for the responses. There is a lot of solid knowledge on this board. Your thoughts all make a lot of sense. All the photos were taken outside of buildings, and the marines were obviously providing support fire for people who had gone inside the buildings. It makes sense that he AP photographers stayed outside with the marines carrying the SAWs.

BTW, it was an M16A4 in the photo. I've just been seeing so many M4s on television that I had them on the brain.

 

[Darkmind]

You shouldn't be seeing any M-4s with Marine units AFAIK...Marines use the M-16A4, as do a lot of Army units. The A4 is the current production version of the M-16.

A lot of Infantry and Cav units (including the ones I've seen on the tube in Fallujah) have M-4s. In my experience in MOUT, whenever possible you leave the SAWs out of the room clearing teams, because that big weapon slows them down. This means there are more of them, relative to other weapons, outside the buildings where the camera guys see them.

I think you should check on that again. I left camp lejeune this past July and most of the units on base and comeing back from Iraq were getting issued brand new M16A3s. The M16A3 is the newest current production version of the M16 that the Marine Corps is issueing.

 

[Stinkyshoe]

Does anyone know why the Marines m16A4s have a fixed front sight gas block? Or perhaps I haven't seen and a4 yet, but the Marines with fancy optics do have what I thought of as an A3. I thought A4s had some sort of flip up front, like on civi weapons. So what truly makes a A4 and A4? Just curious...

A good friend from high school is just getting shipped out. I asked him why he volunteered to carry the SAW. He seemed to think it would improve his chances of getting home. He sure is one tough SOB carrying all that, weighing 140 lbs. in normal clothes with nothing else.

 

[Jeff White]

Darkmind said;

I think you should check on that again. I left camp lejeune this past July and most of the units on base and comeing back from Iraq were getting issued brand new M16A3s. The M16A3 is the newest current production version of the M16 that the Marine Corps is issueing.

Are you certain of that? According to TM 9-1005-319-23&P, the M16A3 is identical to the A2 with the exception of the trigger group, which is SAFE, SEMI, AUTO. The M16A3 has a fixed carry handle. The M16A4 has the removable carry handle and usually (but not always) comes with the M5 RAS. I'm retired from the Army, but my friends still on active duty with the Marines all say they have the A4.

Jeff

 

[Steve Smith]

This is a fair breakdown on what I've seen over the last 4 months:

35% standard M16 A2s
20% M16 A4 full length flat tops
20% M4s
10% SAWs
10% M16 "special duty" guns that are really tiny (I thinnk the helo pilots like them)
5% M14 and AKs

 

[mwv4]

Just to back up what has already been said. SAW gunners are usually left behind the rest of there team when doing MOUT or organized into a SBF. The reason is'nt as much as SAW gunners being slower(MOUT is usually short bursts of speed, and a good SAW gunner can do fine) but due to the fact SAWs have a bad habit of going ka-chunk and that is very bad when clearing a room.

 

[c_yeager]

Probably doesnt mean anything but, I saw a clip on the news that showed two guys with SAWs doing a dynamic entry behing two soldiers with M4s. I thought that was a little odd.

 

[BeLikeTrey]

C yeager

I'd rather not be the guy in front!

 

[Blackhawk 6]

A couple of comments,

Keep in mind that a Marine Squad has three fire-teams of four men (3 SAW's per squad) and a Marine Platoon has no M-240G's organic to it. The typical Marine unit is fielding more SAW's than its equivalent Army unit. As a result of the difference in task organization and depending upon how the Company Commander has distributed the M-240's, the M-249 is more likely to be found in the SBF position.

The Marine Corps issues M-16A4's. Jeff White's comments on this issue are correct.

In my experience in MOUT, whenever possible you leave the SAWs out of the room clearing teams, because that big weapon slows them down.

I could not disagree more. While it is true that the SAW's length, weight and the fact that it is an open bolt weapon are all liabilities (the first two have been addressed with significant success by the para-SAW), they do not preclude the SAW from being used while clearing rooms. These short-comings need to be understood, addressed in training and worked around if possible (i.e. the SAW gunner is not the #1 man). Breaking apart fire teams is bad business, even if done with the best of intentions.

I do not think anyone who has a significant amount of time on both the M-249 and the M-4 would consider the M-249 "the most potent small arm an average soldier can get ahold of." It certainly performs well in some roles, but definitely comes up short in others.

It makes up for the 5.56's lack of punch through good accuracy and excellent capacity and rate of fire.

The SAW is no more accurate than the M-4 (the opposite is probably true). In fact, due to its weight, it is slower to get into action making an M-4 more preferable. Remarks regarding the 5.56mm's effectiveness aside, the SAW is no more likely to put anyone down than an M-4/M-16. Rarely do more than one or two rounds of a 6-9 round burst hit the target.

 

[warmi]

If you were the reporter, who would you rather stand next to: the guy with the M4, or the guy with the SAW?

M4 definitely

Machine gunners would generally be the ones targeted by the bad guys , at least if the opposing side has any clue ...

 

[TimH]

Sorry for my ignorance but what is a SAW?

 

[AZTOY]

:banghead:

 

[AZTOY]

Sorry for my ignorance but what is a SAW?

Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW), M249 Light Machine Gun

 

[student]

Hope this is not too off topic, but just saw on BBC news quite a few marines in the thick of it were using AKs. What is the rationale behind this? I assume they had been issued US rifles, but they only had the AKs.