Problems with M4's

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The much-venerated M1, BAR, and Thompson smg all had problems in North Africa and in the fine volcanic sand of the South Pacific during WWII, unless they were properly cleaned and lubed frequently. The same weapons were known to freeze up in the frigid Korean winter.
I suspect many of the servicemen having trouble with the M-4 would be having trouble with a Garand.
 
Right on GLock Man. Maybe we would have been better off adopting the mini 14 all those years ago. NO way it would be worse than the AR. Or we could have said "if you can't beat em, join em" and made AK clones!!!
 
A matter of history. Custer's men had copper cased ammo for their Springfield carbines and you see how that worked when they got hot. A bit later, a reinforced squad using Springfields with brass ammo totally kicked butt against another mob of Indians in the Wagon Box Fight.
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Well, interesting how the so called "Wagon Box Fight" happening "a bit later" could be fought in 1867 when LBH was fought in June 1876..

you got it all wrong..

Custer did loose this battle (LBH) and his men died because Benteen and Reno didnt follow orders and let him and his men down, and because indians were many more... not because the springfield trapdoor happened to jam, or because the Lakotha and Cheyenne had a handfull of Henry's and Winchesters..
 
No-one seems to have addressed the claims in this article that there were an equal number of failures from crew-served weapons (which, incidentally should always be MUCH more reliable per round than any shoulder-fired weapon) as there were M4 failures. Based on those claims, the crew-serveds need immediate examination...

John
 
i have spent 26 months in Iraq over the last few years, as an 11B and i am about to go again, i have never had a single issue with my rifle. it has been hot, dusty, sand storms, and it even snowed last deployment, my rifle has fired everytime i needed it too. i let you know if that changes within the next deloyment.
 
Series of videos starting with this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5CQOvdYW6c

The guy does throw it in a mud puddle from time to time to cool it off, and claims it has a dry film lube coating on the bolt. Anyway, my point I was making is that at no point is the pistol grip, mag release, or magazine too hot to touch. The idea that you couldn't charge the weapon because of 360 rounds in 30 minutes is just silly to me.
 
Having had experience with all of the above weapons in the sandbox the story above may be accurate but the fault is not the weapon(s). The main problem is individuals "just don't care" if their weapons are clean or more importantly if their mags are clean or linked ammo properly stored/inspected. Or how about this one....if the M2 50cal is headspaced and timed or if they even know how to do it...I've seen more 50cals blown up due to operator error than broken from firing.....period.

If the weapons weren't properly maintained then they are going to fail AKs, ARs, BARs whatever...I've seen AKs fail on the same range that M16s didn't fail. Considering lots of the taliban AKs are Khyber pass copies of dubious quality I wouldn't call them perfect either...

I can tell you that my M16A2 many years ago went through 22 mags in less than 1/2 hour before it failed, most of it full auto....the problem was I got it so hot the extractor spring lost its temper and it wouldn't extract(this was way before the D-fender type bumpers). Replaced the spring and it was fine.

You wouldn't believe how many times I checked someones mags and shook dirt and small rocks from them! No one ever taught or supervised them to download and clean their mags...

So before the "Stoner design" gets the blame you should look at all the mitigating circumstances....
 
I'm sure the dead soldiers will know to clean their weapons next time.

Do the taxpayers get their money back from Colt (and the Congressmen they own)?

But since it criticizes a gun I like it must be fake.

Literally the only reason I came back to THR was to see the emotional reaction to this story. It was worth it. Feel free to hate on me for asking questions about whether we should keep rewarding Colt for this.
 
dillynfw said:
I'm sure the dead soldiers will know to clean their weapons next time.

Do the taxpayers get their money back from Colt (and the Congressmen they own)?

But since it criticizes a gun I like it must be fake.

Literally the only reason I came back to THR was to see the emotional reaction to this story. It was worth it. Feel free to hate on me for asking questions about whether we should keep rewarding Colt for this.
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In regards to those killed....Combat has a steep learning curve....you learn what to do the right way or you die... period. There is no fairy tale ending...people die in war and thats a fact. "We" already knew that weapons maintenance is #1 priority...period. If any of those killed because "or weapons failures" ate chow, took a nap or did anything other than ensure that their weapons, ammo and other warfighting gear were 100% ready to go they didn't learn and they paid the price. I hate every time I see/hear about one of ours getting killed/wounded. But those that don't do the basic daily routine on their weapons have no pity from me....

If it turned out there were failures of M4 barrels or bolts or some manufacturing defect then yes I'd have issues with Colt but in light of the OPs article it sounds like what I posted above...basic lack of supervision....period. Troops will learn to maintain their gear or we can keep blaming Colt/FN every time someone gets killed.

As others have stated...M1s, Carbines, BARs and Brownings all had problems in pacific sand. In every conflict we look for some system to blame.....100 years from now the pulse laser rifle in 40w range will be junk and we should get something better...it never ends.....
 
Sounds like denial Dagored. The US army has been replacing the main-line M4 since the 90's and adopting the M4A1.

Here's the story from Yahoo! : http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_afghan...apons_failures

Amazing. Anyone else notice that the biggest detractors to the findings of said article are AR owners/supporters?
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Might have a point, if I owned an AR. I don't.

I just have learned to read between the lines any article written by the f'ed up liberal media, and especially anything by the ASSociated Press, as blatantly unprofessional a journalistic organization as MSNBC.

You can choose to believe everything (including the bias incorrect BS) that the MSM feeds you, I don't.
 
I have to admit I am both amazed and disappointed that members of this board are willing to take the article at face value.

Add to that, there are numerous members of the board who have weighed in with personal experience in battle with the weapon and given us statements that basically the M4 is reliable, and not prone to jamming or failure, yet the armchair quarterbacks are ready to storm the gates of Colt with nooses in their hands.

Sarah Brady would be proud how easily they are lead to an assumption by an unconfirmed article by the main stream media. Who can blame them though, it's not like the MSM is ever wrong, or has intentionally slanted to the negative a story about the US military, it's actions, tactics or equipment. :rolleyes:

One thing I have learned, some choose to consider information and think for themselves, some are sheep.
 
I fired thousands of rounds from the M4A1 during Navy training between 2001 and 2004. My rifle only ever failed to feed one time - on the range - and it was due to lack of lubrication. Neither I nor anybody else on the range had brought any lube along, and there was none in the training truck either. Thinking "outside of the box", I popped the hood of the truck, pulled out the dipstick, and dripped three drops of motor oil onto the half-closed bolt of my carbine. I pulled the charging handle back, let go, and the bolt chambered the round. My carbine worked fine all day, and I lubed it properly that evening. The leadership did not appreciate my ingenuity.
I have shot several AK and AR variants over the past 8 years. As far as I'm concerned, both platforms are perfectly functionally reliable. For accuracy and ergonomics - I would prefer a quality AR anytime.
 
I have to reiterate what someone else brought up and what many here have failed to recognize.

GUNS OTHER THAN THE AR-15 FAILED. The M249, built by a different company, from a different country, with completely different internals also failed. The only similarities are the color and ammo. But again...both failed. Had the AR failed and all the other guns functioned just fine, then yes, we could say the AR platform is the guilty party.

But entirely different guns also failed, meaning there was some other cause for the malfunctions.
 
I have a problem with the story...maybe I didn't get something, maybe someone can set me straight..? They told the story of the 2 soilders fighting together in the crows nest...the one soilder when popped up was shot an killed...the other soildier its said, his rifle jammed an got mad an threw it down an used the crew served weapon which also failed an he was then killed....right? My question is how do they know this happened...was there a reporter there taking notes...if both were killed who gave there story as to what happened.....? I probably missed something....
 
I'm sure the dead soldiers will know to clean their weapons next time...

But since it criticizes a gun I like it must be fake.

Literally the only reason I came back to THR was to see the emotional reaction to this story. It was worth it. Feel free to hate on me for asking questions about whether we should keep rewarding Colt for this.
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Why should we "hate" on you, when we can just criticize a sloppy, poorly written, story? Where is the scathing criticism of the crew-serveds that went down? If you understand how infantry weapons are supposed to work, a equal number of failures of crew-served weapons to carbines is a horrendous failure, and considerably more cause for concern...but, I guess it helps if you've actually seen the enemy engaged on numerous occasions (as I, and several others posting in this thread have), or have the barest understanding of what "most casualty producing weapon" is, or even have a historical understanding of firepower and war in the last 100 years. (And if you don't know what I'm talking about, STOP REPLYING and go read this and this. FM 7-8 is 444 pages long online, so I don't expect to hear from some of you again for days.)

I am not an AR-15/M16 apologist of any stripe (as five minutes of research would show), so I don't have an ax to grind. As a student of military history, and a soldier, I do understand several important factors some in this thread are blithely ignoring, or just don't have the knowledge base to understand.

John
 
Quote:
let me know which gun can shoot 12 magazines in a row without having problems..
AK. There is a youtube video where some fool shoots it so hard the handguard catches fire, then he reloads and shoots another full mag!

--wally.

I had a link to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYigC...aynext_from=PL
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Try and hit anything past 100 yards with it.

If my choice for a weapon in combat is an M4, or and AK, I will take the M4 every day of the week.

I wonder how many of the AK proponents on this board have actually used one in combat? I know many on this board have used the M16/M4 when it counted.
 
I've been using M16s, M4s, and AR-15s for several years now and have never had any serious jams. The only time I ever saw problems was when using blanks, it seems like the M16s never cycled properly when I was using them but I've never had this problem using live rounds.

The most serious malfunction I ever had with a M4 occurred over a year ago and was under unusual circumstances. We were conducting CQB drills for most of the day at temperatures close to 0 degrees Fahrenheit (Alaska). I don't know how many rounds I had fired but I guess because the extreme temperature differences between the hot barrel and the weather outside, the barrel bent. I couldn't tell from looking at it but the armorer, explained to me that's what happened. I imagine extreme temperature differences would be a problem with any weapon.

Overall, I think the M16/M4 is great weapon. There may be other weapons out there that are better but none that are that significantly better. I think that's part of the reason the military hasn't changed yet. Although the AK-47 is more reliable than the M4, I think anyone who has fired both would realize the numerous advantages the M4 has over it. While I was in Iraq, almost every Iraqi soldier I encountered wanted me to trade my M4 for their AK-47.
 
I have only fired support weapons at the enemy. However, I find the number of malfunctions I have experienced with an M4 while training (in probably 5K rounds) to be very reasonable.
 
I find it amazing how AR-15 owners are so quick to compare those who dislike the AR-15 and it's ilk (M4 being one) to Sarah Brady. Apparently if you don't like the AR-15 you aren't a real gun owner. Hence another reason to hate AR-15's, they turn their owners into high-and-mighty jack*****.

It's also amazing that even before we had a source for the article in the OP these guys were criticizing it, and yet once we found multiple sources (FOX news, Yahoo!), they continue to criticize it on the same merits, i.e.: "It's from the media and therefor wrong". Apparently ignorance is yet another accessory the AR-15 can be equipped with.

Dago, I wouldn't call FOX News Liberal. Your in a clear case of denial. Like every other AR-15 fanatic who jumps when their precious is questioned. Fifty years of failures stretching from Vietnam to now and still people cling to it.
 
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Try and hit anything past 100 yards with it.

If my choice for a weapon in combat is an M4, or and AK, I will take the M4 every day of the week.
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I don't know how much you shoot, but I have no trouble hitting 2 liter soda bottles at 100 yards with my AK. Seeing how your chest is at least three or four times as large, I don't think hits at 200-300 yards would be much of a problem, although admittedly soda bottles ain't shooting back!

OTOH if my position was being over run, it would seem 100 yard shots would be off the agenda and the ability to continue firing as long as there was ammo would be paramount.

I've no dog in this fight, I enjoy shooting both my ARs and AKs but even under benign range conditions the reliability advantage of the AK is obvious, as is the accuracy advantage of the AR.

--wally.
 
[sigh]Hobbyists[/sigh]

Unless one holds or has held an 11 or 18 series MOS in the Army or one of the equivalent USMC MOS's he really doesn't have the right experience level to comment like an expert on a subject this.

Reading stories written for the masses and the absolute drivel that's printed in most of the firearms press and internet gun forums doesn't make one an expert on military small arms their employment in any given environment.

I'm sorry if this hurts anyone's feelings, but these threads (and I bet there are dozens of them, some hundreds of posts long) always remind me of the members of your local meat cutters union getting together to critique neurosurgery. Is it really necessary to rehash all the same arguments and repeat all the same misinformation we've posted here so many times in the past?

Do a search, bring up all the old threads on this subject, read them all, then if you think you have something new to add to this same old tired argument then post it. Really folks we can come up with better things to discuss here.
 
Fifty years of failures stretching from Vietnam to now and still people cling to it.
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Uh, the platform has changed quite a bit since then.

Still, I think that what has changed as much as anything is our attitude.

If a Garand jammmed, and a soldier was killed in WW II, it was just something that happened in battle. We didn't expect rifles to work perfectly in combat, and casualties from battles were as great as casualties from whole wars, today.

Obviously, I want our military to have the best weapons, all things considered. There are many things to consider.

Still, I suspect that guns will fail sometimes. Engineers have never made one that didn't.
 
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