Problems with M4's

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Buckeye

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Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight

WASHINGTON – In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.

When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

Which raises the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?

Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.

A week ago, eight U.S. troops were killed at a base near Kamdesh, a town near Wanat. There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.

Army Col. Wayne Shanks, a military spokesman in Afghanistan, said a review of the battle at Kamdesh is under way. "It is too early to make any assumptions regarding what did or didn't work correctly," he said.

Complaints about the weapons the troops carry, especially the M4, aren't new. Army officials say that when properly cleaned and maintained, the M4 is a quality weapon that can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur.

The M4 is a shorter, lighter version of the M16, which made its debut during the Vietnam war. Roughly 500,000 M4s are in service, making it the rifle troops on the front lines trust with their lives.

Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., a leading critic of the M4, said Thursday the Army needs to move quickly to acquire a combat rifle suited for the extreme conditions U.S. troops are fighting in.

U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle.

"The M4 has served us well but it's not as good as it needs to be," Coburn said.

Battlefield surveys show that nearly 90 percent of soldiers are satisfied with their M4s, according to Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller, head of the Army office that buys soldier gear. Still, the rifle is continually being improved to make it even more reliable and lethal.

Fuller said he's received no official reports of flawed weapons performance at Wanat. "Until it showed up in the news, I was surprised to hear about all this," he said.

The study by Douglas Cubbison of the Army Combat Studies Institute at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., hasn't been publicly released. Copies of the study have been leaked to news organizations and are circulating on the Internet.

Cubbison's study is based on an earlier Army investigation and interviews with soldiers who survived the attack at Wanat. He describes a well-coordinated attack by a highly skilled enemy that unleashed a withering barrage with AK-47 automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenades.

The soldiers said their weapons were meticulously cared for and routinely inspected by commanders. But still the weapons had breakdowns, especially when the rifles were on full automatic, which allows hundreds of bullets to be fired a minute.

The platoon-sized unit of U.S. soldiers and about two dozen Afghan troops was shooting back with such intensity the barrels on their weapons turned white hot. The high rate of fire appears to have put a number of weapons out of commission, even though the guns are tested and built to operate in extreme conditions.

Cpl. Jonathan Ayers and Spc. Chris McKaig were firing their M4s from a position the soldiers called the "Crow's Nest." The pair would pop up together from cover, fire half a dozen rounds and then drop back down.

On one of these trips up, Ayers was killed instantly by an enemy round. McKaig soon had problems with his M4, which carries a 30-round magazine.

"My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

The soldiers also had trouble with their M249 machine guns, a larger weapon than the M4 that can shoot up to 750 rounds per minute.

Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon.

Bogar was killed during the firefight, but no one saw how he died, according to the report.

___

Anyone have first hand experience?
 
There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.

A bit of an attempt at emotional slant, making something seem like it was an issue when there wasn't actually any allegation of a problem.

But still the weapons had breakdowns, especially when the rifles were on full automatic, which allows hundreds of bullets to be fired a minute.

Is anyone on this board not aware that the standard issue M4 doesn't have a "full automatic" selector? They only have semi-automatic and three round burst capability? Only the M4A1 has full auto, and it is issued to spec-ops troops, not regular infantry. More BS reporting where truth isn't allowed to get in the way of sensationalist reporting.

Not saying there may not have been weapons issues, but this report is a typical example of bad reporting with an agenda different than telling the whole truth.
 
I just read that article as well. Unbelievable that our troops should have to deal with a problem like this. I guess the M-16 Vietnam experience taught us nothing. Hopefully someone with real combat experience with this weapon will chime in on this.
 
let me know which gun can shoot 12 magazines in a row without having problems..

Actually, even the Sig550, piston driven, known for it's high reliabilty, is advised to be cooled after 8 mags fired, becaus it could jam or cook off rounds..

M4's is not the best thing out there in a sandy environnement, but hey... NOTHING is perfect..

Keep it "wet" (greasy), and cool it down with water if you can
 
wait wait wait i thought all the ar15 guys said this weapon has been vastly improved since vietnam and is more than perfectly reliable?
as stated 12 mags over 30 minutes
id expect more from a us army weapon
get rid of the stoner design
 
"as stated" in an internet text, with no source..

and, if you DON'T take care of your gun (cleaned greased) this might very well be happening..
 
If you're hunkered down in an outpost in dusty conditions pinned down by enemy fire, the need to scrupulously clean your rifle is not top-of-mind. Is the M4 the best weapon for our troops whose lives literally depend on it?
 
Surprised anyone is even going to talk about an issue raised by such a BS article.
 
The FOX article indicates a lot of ammunition being fired too quickly. That could be a problem. I was in an infantry company in Nam 68-69. Yes, I kept my 16 clean.It never failed me. Our CO had a standing rule, the 16's were to be fired on semi only. The waste ammo was not effective. I thought it to be a good weapon.The earlier problems were made by the Army in altering the powder in the cartridge,a lack of cleaning kits and making it full automatic as the original was semi as adopted by the AF.When I was there, we had the LSA oil that was better than the original oil used. Byron
 
This is not B.S.

I actually saw our guys having trouble with their guns during a firefight, on TV!!!

A news show did a spot on Afghanistan troop involvement last spring and they showed
our troops in an outpost on a mountian top taking fire. When our troops would fire back
you could see one poor soldier jacking around with his M249 in living color. That's the gun
to watch out for IMO.

If I was sent to Hell, I would have a backup.
 
The FOX article indicates a lot of ammunition being fired too quickly. That could be a problem.

Isn't that what the weapon is suppose to be designed for?

If not, it looks like we should scrap that platform for one that would fire a lot of ammo.....quickly.
 
This is report absolute crap.

For those of you wishing to know my credientals I am a weapons instructor/maintainer for the military and have deployed numerous time with the Army Air Force and Marines. I have been instructing and repairing all military small arms for over 6 years and have seen everyone of the arms put through the ringer.

First on all of my deployments I have never seen a leadership element that was that worried about checking the cleanliness of thier troops weapons. They check once a month at most. Dagored you are correct in saying that m-4's have the burst and it would be odd that these weapons had the auto selector. With that said my biggest problem with the news story is it does not explain that all military troops are taught SPORTS (an immediate action procedure used to get your weapon working if there is a jam) and when use correctly solves almost all problems. Furthermore I have shot far more than 12 mags through my m-4 in a 30 minute time period with no problems other than the barrel getting hot (not hot enough to cause problems just nough to make it uncomfortable to hold the bottom handguard which is easily fixed by using the forward pistol grip)

This type of crap journalism is made to cause a stir and what they dont think about is how many people they affect by such a bogus report. Everyone with loved one downrange rest assured the m-4 is a safe and reliable weapon (as with anything things can have problems when not inspected and maintained properly).

There are many other problems with this report (the fact checker should be fired) but if you have any other question let me know. And again what I wrote is not he said she said, I have had over 6 years of shooting this weapon system almost daily and when in instruction see 21 weapons on the line everyday. We had over 8000 people qualify (57 weapons needed fixed most of which would still have worked just needed a new part)last year alone so I have spent my time with this weapons system.
 
I don't know if the facts are BS, but I don't think the writer can be trusted. For example:

But still the weapons had breakdowns, especially when the rifles were on full automatic, which allows hundreds of bullets to be fired a minute.

This is clearly an extrapolation of the rate of fire, but I don't see an infantry soldier actually firing 100 rounds/minute.

The platoon-sized unit of U.S. soldiers and about two dozen Afghan troops was shooting back with such intensity the barrels on their weapons turned white hot.

Do we have anyone with experience of seeing a rifle barrel white hot? Maybe it's true, but I find it hard to believe that the weapon would continue to fire through all the shades of red and orange before it actually turned white.
 
It's an AP story, author Richard Lardner.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9B8SUPG0&show_article=1&catnum=0

I have no doubt that the AR platform calls it quits in some conditions. But I wonder what doesn't.

Also, CLP sucks as a lubricant, unless it's fresh and clean. I'm not sure what they're using in Afghanistan now, but I wouldn't want to use that crap. I've seen it gum up machines that are far less finicky than an AR is, because it's a solvent so it dissolves crud, which then hardens like clay if you don't keep the CLP clean and fresh.

Does anyone know what the Army uses now? I do know that Marines in Iraq were using CLP.

Those details do matter. In fact, I wonder if the same problems might be seen in other platforms with the wrong lube.
 
All of the military uses CLP which is far better than some of the alternatives. There is a reason the military uses CLP and not some of the others. Some other "military lubricant" causes far more problems if not maintained. (thats what there supposed to use per order of TACCOM)

eye5600 Even when we were told to test the round count of the m-60 machine gun before a barrelchange I never got it white hot. First starts to turn green then orange then bends where shooting it would be unsafe (1400 rounds before it bent and it was slill orange)
 
Some other "military lubricant" causes far more problems if not maintained. (thats what there supposed to use per order of TACCOM)

Certainly. Some.

Not all.

I use the stuff as a gun cleaner. Works fine, and helps keep rust at bay, too.

I quit using it as a lubricant based on my experiences with... a jammed AR, and as I said, some other machinery that we used it on and gummed it up really badly.
 
I was in the sand box. I carried an AMD 65 first (not enough M4s) then an M4. I never had a problem with it, BUT if I was called back up (I am retired) I would much prefer to have my M1a1 or my HK91 or if I really have to carry 556 my HK93. Sorry after using the mouse gun for 25 years I Still don't like it. I would not carry the M9 either. Then again I don't care for the 249 or the 240 or the Mk19. I have used them all in the sandbox with major problems. Just my two cents.
 
Thats exactly why I said some but as far as it jamming an AR I doubt the amount that is supposed to be used in a desert climate caused any problems. All technical orders I have seen to include Army field manuals stat that you should lubricate the weapons then dry completly (to reduce the sand that sticks to your gun) leaving the super thin coat of lube left remaining.
 
I am torn on this subject-- I agree 100% that no expense should be spared to give our guys and gals the best weapons in THE WORLD-- but I also know that with proper cleaning and care, the M16 (and M4) are reliable-- I carried the same beat up A2 in the FMF (O331/8531 USMC 91-97) for several years, and it never ever jammed. I cleaned it (in the field) when I got up, before every meal, wiped it down on breaks, and kept it only lightly oiled. I refused to fire blanks out of it, and usually "forgot" my BFA when I knew blanks would be issued. I did keep a shoot off muzzle cover on it 24/7 when it was not in the armory, and I did use an extra scarf (t-shirt like material) around the receiver when we were on long humps or when we were riding in the Tracks or 5 tons....

Basically, with normal care, I felt ok with my A2-- but on the flipside, our guys are on prolonged deployments, and I am unsure what rear support they get in the terms of rest, higher level repairs and maintenance on their weapons, so I am inclined to side with the troops-- if they feel they need better weapons, then we should maybe funnel some "stimulus" money their way and get them what they need or want.

IMHO.
 
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