Iraqi army to adopt m-16

[30 cal slob]

so the iraqis got a rifle that is arguably 50% more accurate than an AK (<=200 meters) ... but much less reliable.

 

[junyo]

You know, guys, it says they purchased the M16s. Not were given.

Why did you have to intrude on the rants and half baked conspiracy theories with your stupid facts?

One of the defense rags had an article years ago that one of the things that made Arab armies in general less effective than they could/should have been was culture. Everything was tribal, and decisions pride based; officers wouldn't shared bad news or concerns with superiors out of fear of looking bad, especially in front of a member of another tribe/ethnic group, and wouldn't share info with their subordinates because retaining the knowledge and doling it out gave them a little more power. The writer claimed that he had occasion to train a Saudi unit on a weapons system. The training was going poorly and he realized that despite the NCO's enthusiasm none of the men had read the manuals, and were trying to pick it up purely from watching him and being berated by the sergeant. upon inquiry, none of them had read the manuals because the LT had collected them all and was holding on to them; a pure power play. So the trainer had to get all of these guys over the petty nonsense of individual gamesmanship and start working as a team before he could even begin real training. And that apparently was/is typical.

That's all said to say this; IMHO a good portion of this decision is an effort to turn the Iraqis into a professional military rather than a bunch of thugs. Iraq is probably one of the best ME countries for this type of experiment, and we're never going to get better terms. The US has been doing a lot to groom leaders and reshape culture at all levels of their military and police forces, this is just another step. It's a philosophical/cultural shift; rather than be armed with a rifle that any nitwit on the street can obtain and operate you are now a Rifleman, with the specific and specialized knowledge needed to operate this fine weapon. From the officer standpoint, they now have to push knowledge down and delegate real responsibility to their subordinates, which will start the kernel of a highly professional NCO core, which as I understand it is fairly unusual outside of NATO. The faster the US builds a modern competent military establishment there, the faster the area stabilizes and we can be elsewhere.

 

[medmo]

It definitely should simplify the battlefield when they are 100% converted. Anyone with an AK on the street would be immediately determined to be a target.

 

[kir_kenix]

It definitely should simplify the battlefield when they are 100% converted. Anyone with an AK on the street would be immediately determined to be a target.

that might be a little hasty. we have always been told that citizens here are allowed to own 1 ak per house hold, and a certain amount of ammo (100 or 300 rds...i dont remember). sometimes we will see sheep or camel herders w/ ak's, but its not all that often.

coalition forces cant just engage people because they are carrying arms (or bombs/rpg's/whatever...well, maybe the rpg) around. turns out alot of these folks find this stuff (or are told by insurgents to use them against us) and they just show up outside a FOB or cop station and turn them over to us. hell, i think we pay civilians pretty well to turn in/find an ied or efp.

our orders state they must be a legitamate military threat to engage. just because some guy has an ak slung over his back, doesnt mean hes a jihadist or jam member.

 

[Hokkmike]

"We in the U.S. know that the M-16 is superior to the AK ... it's more durable," said Army Col. Stephen Scott, who's in charge of helping the Iraqi army get all the equipment it needs to outfit its forces.

I am surprised by this statement...

 

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

I heard it is because the M16 is the weapon of the "winner" a common conception in the Iraqi Government. Not sure about this tho

 

[IndianaBoy]

The M16 is working fine in the sandbox, at least that is the story I get from my friends who have been there.

There is nothing wrong with the rifle, and it is simple, not complicated to take down and clean.

Iraqis aren't stupid. They can learn the weapon system.

I see this as a potential boon. Another foreign nation using 5.56 means there ought to be some more milsurp in 20 years or so, like the 8mm Mauser that machine gun shooters burned up over the last 40 years.

As long as they start making their own ammo at some point, I'm all for it.


Rifles are cheap, compared to the overall cost of the war.

 

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

Couldnt they just by their ammuniton from the UAE or Saudi Arabia? I dont think the price of ammuniton will fall once they begin to make thier own or buy thier own.

 

[strat81]

Just this average schlep's opinion: Cleaning my AK is a lot easier than cleaning my AR. I've gone through a case of nasty, filthy Golden Tiger (i.e., Russian junk) in my AK and it was fine. And that was a sand and dust free environment.

Money and politics aside, I think the AK is a better choice for the Iraqis.

 

[alex_trebek]

This is a complete waste of money, anyone remember when we gave the Afghans and Iraqi's 10 years worth of ammo? I know that the munitions included tank and mortar rounds, but I find it hard to believe that the majority of it wasnt 7.62 x 39.

 

[Tribal]

This is a good thing for two main reasons:
1. Morale: Embedded journalists have pointed out that a certain solidarity exists when allies use the same/similar weapons and equipment. American liaisons to Iraqi units sometimes carried AKs for this reason. Don't underestimate the perception of the "most powerful army's rifle" versus "the terrorists' rifle."
2. There have been some concerns about arms getting in the hands of Bad People. I'm thinking that having weapons which require a fair amount of maintenance and shoot a small bullet in the hands of people who don't clean their weapons and "spray and pray" isn't necessarily all that bad of a thing.

 

[jackstinson]

deleted

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I heard it is because the M16 is the weapon of the "winner" a common conception in the Iraqi Government. Not sure about this tho

This is most true. I haven't been there for the M16 changeover, but was there when Glocks and Berettas first started hitting the Iraqi Security Forces.

The Police got Glocks, and were convinced that we were shortchanging them with an inferior pistol. "If Glocks are so great, then why are the Americans carrying Berettas?" was the reasoning. We kept telling them that the Glock was just as good, if not better.

We'd about convinced our local unit, but then Higher up and gives the nearby Border Patrol unit several crates of Beretta 92 9mms (but the earlier version with the heel mag release), and then the Police were convinced that we were favoring the BPs at their expense.

Lots of weird politics and cultural psychology involved.

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

+1 junyo.

 

[Titan6]

I could say quite a lot but I will only say a little. MOD wanted the rifles so they bought them. Some fine people tried to talk them out of them but they bought them anyway (it's their Army you know).

They are not really ready for them but they are making up for this by giving priority to the new units where the soldiers haven't had the chance to learn bad habits with from the AK (like cleaning your rifle once every full moon is okay). They also have US NCOs teaching them the ropes and hopefully will learn quickly.

Despite all the board posturing about the benfits of the AK vs. AR in combat with infantry units the AR is superior for many good reasons that you can look up in any of the dozens (hundreds?) of threads about the topic. It could go either way for their success. But it should be noted that if they are serious about developing a professional Army that will help a lot.

 

[Detritus]

most of which im sure will be old A2's that have been in inventory for years

that would be MY rather uninformed conclusion. that they're getting older A2s and non-flattop M4s that are no longer needed or wanted, as US units convert more and more to flattop variants.

just seems like, Based on pictures from Iraq and Afghanistan and commentaries here on THR, that as time goes on US units are or have already converted to M16A3s and whatever the flattop M4 is called, with combat optics of various types.
Now for whichever of the various reason cited in this thread, we've decided to arm our new allies with M16 type rifles, it makes sense to give them the iron sighted rifles our military seems to be phasing out.

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

Look at it from this angle, would you rather Colt and FN get the money for new rifles or China? I would much rather give whoever’s money it is, ours or theirs to our companies or at least a fellow NATO member company rather then the Chinese.

If everything goes to hell in a few years, then we just stop suppling parts and they have to purchase all new rifles.

 

[jrfoxx]

"We in the U.S. know that the M-16 is superior to the AK ... it's more durable,"

Yeah, I have to wonder who he thinks is buying THAT load of poo.....
More accurate sure, more modular, yes, but reliable, come on.....

 

[atblis]

Geese

According to Webster's Dictionary

Main Entry:
du·ra·ble Listen to the pronunciation of durable
Pronunciation:
\ˈdu̇r-ə-bəl also ˈdyu̇r-\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin durabilis, from durare to last — more at during
Date:
14th century
: able to exist for a long time without significant deterioration; also : designed to be durable <durable goods>

IS NOT INTERCHANGEABLE WITH

Main Entry:
re·li·able Listen to the pronunciation of 1reliable
Pronunciation:
\ri-ˈlī-ə-bəl\
Function:
adjective
Date:
1569

1 : suitable or fit to be relied on : dependable 2 : giving the same result on successive trials
— re·li·able·ness noun
— re·li·ably Listen to the pronunciation of reliably \-blē\ adverb

Guess what? The M16/AR is in fact more durable as far as the expected service life (number of rounds fired). The attributes that make an AK in theory more reliable, also reduce how long it lasts.

 

[marksman13]

Honestly, I think this is a good move from a military standpoint. After working with the Iraqi Army for a year, I can say that many of the guys we trained could have been trained to a much higher standard if they had better weapons. Imagine having to fight for your country every day with an AK-47 with no buttstock. There is a reason the IA wasn't very effective in the early goings of the war.

Also, with US troops working hand in hand with the IA it is good to know that there will now be some mag and ammo commonality. Also gives troops a better idea of who is really on their side and who is an Ali Baba in IA clothing.

It seems that most of THR wants America out of Iraq as soon as possible. Why would anybody who supports a pull out be anything but supportive of a move that will make the IA more efficient? The sooner they a capable of self-sustainment, the sooner we all get to come home.

As to the comments about confusing the Iraqis, I wouldn't worry so much about that. While I will say that the IAs aren't exactly a quick study, they do alright with a little patience and intensive training. Once you build their confidence they are actually quite proficient.

 

[theken206]

"Imagine having to fight for your country every day with an AK-47 with no buttstock. There is a reason the IA wasn't very effective in the early goings of the war."

your talking about people who hack off there buttstocks becuase its "unmanly" to shoot with it.

My friend was telling me about trying to explain about aiming and using burst fire with a light machine gun or the like. The converation started when one of the iraqis noticed he had the SAWs para stock all the way out and asked why he didnt just remove it as its an automatic weapon and you dont aim, just point it and "spray".

 

[marksman13]

theken206, that's why we are working with them. The kind of situation you described does happen, but not as often as some would have you believe. You can't expect the Iraqis to ever take things seriously until the American units training them do. You solve a problem by starting at its roots. The roots of the IA training problem start with weapons and attitudes.

 

[theken206]

"You solve a problem by starting at its roots. The roots of the IA training problem start with weapons and attitudes."

I hear ya, just havent sensed/seen alot of respect IME from the people i know who have dealt with them.

Ive heard keeping those guys silent and there damn hands on there weapons on a patrol can be a chore, let alone training them on a new weapons system.

for instance a story from another friend about how some SGT got KIA by freindly fire by one of those fools. Got shot in the back of the neck as he was rallying people/leading a firefight or something along those lines. He said that dude was kickin some ass and talking some names before he got popped.

 

[buck00]

Why do I get the feeling this deal was reached after a vice president from Colt, a few lobbyists, and some DOD people had some whiskeys and a nice steak dinner at a club on the Potomac river?


My next thought is.... does this mean the price of 7.62 x 39 will finally drop? Please?

 

[JWarren]

The initiative marks a sharp break for a culture steeped in the traditions of the Soviet-era AK-47 Kalashnikov assault rifle, a symbol of revolutionary zeal and third-world simplicity that is ubiquitous among the militaries of the Middle East.

I really get sick of making guns into "Symbols" of anything.

"We in the U.S. know that the M-16 is superior to the AK ... it's more durable,"

?? Idiotic statement. I like the AR platform, and I like the AK platform-- and have no illusions about either.

"Our goal is to give every Iraqi soldier an M-16A2 or an M-4," Scott said. "And as the Iraqi army grows, we will adjust."

Pay attention to this in about 10 years. We (the USA) have a proud and time-honored tradition of arming to the teeth our temporary friends so that they can use them against us a decade later.

Then the pentagon says "Huh... Who'duv thunk [sic] it?"

Getting both U.S. and Iraqi forces on the same page when it comes to basic weaponry is part of the argument for M-16 outfitting.

Makes sense logistically and politically. I still want to trust them when we get on planes though... and I am not sure I do yet.

"I'm also a fan of AKs," Scott said.

Flies in the face of his prior statement. A "Fan" would have a tad more knowledge on the subject, I suspect. But I'm not saying AKs are perfect and never jam or break. I am saying that I'd not be in a hurry to state that another roughly equivelent firearm is MORE reliable or durable than one.

After seeing some of the firing range training himself, Scott added that he "asked the Iraqis how they liked the weapon and they said it was far superior, it was more accurate ... and more reliable."

I don't doubt the accuracy, or fit of the weapon. But I still would like to see who Scott is getting kickbacks from.

A system that registers each rifle with the individual who receives it using biometric data such as thumb prints and eye scans is meant to address concerns over U.S. weapons winding up in enemy hands. A July 2007 Government Accountability Office report concluded that as many as 190,000 weapons delivered to the Iraqi army were not accounted for and could've wound up in terrorist caches.

Somehow, I am not instilled with confidence.

"These Iraqi soldiers know that this weapon becomes part of their person," he said. "And they also know that they are responsible and accountable for that weapon."

So they just take it with them if they decide to join Al-Quada. I don't think stacking charges matter too much when you have decided to join a terrorist organization.

No.. I'm not making a blanket statement that Iraqis or Muslims as a whole are sympathetic to Al-Quada. I'm just pointing out the fact that a little retina scan does nothing to prevent it. It just lets you know who left with the gun.

And from the looks of it, Iraqi soldiers aren't willing to hand them over to the bad guys.

Good to know.

"Most of the soldiers think they will be just like the Americans, and that is making them very happy,"

Of course. Everyone knows if that if you have the tools of a Navy SEAL, you ARE one. I truly fear the ninjas crouching behind ficus trees all across the USA.



And there we have my cynical "First-Cup-of-Coffee" post. Glad I got that out of the way...



-- John