Ireland. PLEASE READ.
- Thread starter sense
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Moondoggie
Member
I just got back home after plying my trade over the road for a couple of days.
Took a bit of effort to wade through this thread. I think it digests better being able to read the whole thing at once rather than in small bites.
"Ageism"....that's a hoot! Sense attempts to link "Ageism" to all of the other evil "Ism's" in order to deflect against attacks upon her flawed/undeveloped logic. Not a solid debating tactic. Not a winner, either!
Note to Sense; the saying "The older I get, the smarter my father becomes" is one that holds a universal truth. The thing is, we all were once your age and recognize your point of view from our personal experience; you can't say the same. Ever heard of "The idealism of youth"? I'll call your "Ism's" and raise you one.
Your perception of communism is particularly idealistic. It sounds great in theory, but it has only lead to totalanarianism (See, all of us need a little help with our spelling from time to time! I could add a dozen or so more letters to that word and it still wouldn't look right.), mass murder, untold human suffering, and economic disaster...it just has no practical application in the real world. You can't legislate individuality out of the human psyche, even when implemented by the very real threat of death/imprisonment. Every socialist "experiment" has resulted in nothing more than enslavement of the common people; read: Subjects.
I hope you stay around here on THR and continue to debate your point of view. I think you will find a thoughtful and compassionate bunch of folks here now that we realize that your purpose is not just to create controversy.
Took a bit of effort to wade through this thread. I think it digests better being able to read the whole thing at once rather than in small bites.
"Ageism"....that's a hoot! Sense attempts to link "Ageism" to all of the other evil "Ism's" in order to deflect against attacks upon her flawed/undeveloped logic. Not a solid debating tactic. Not a winner, either!
Note to Sense; the saying "The older I get, the smarter my father becomes" is one that holds a universal truth. The thing is, we all were once your age and recognize your point of view from our personal experience; you can't say the same. Ever heard of "The idealism of youth"? I'll call your "Ism's" and raise you one.
Your perception of communism is particularly idealistic. It sounds great in theory, but it has only lead to totalanarianism (See, all of us need a little help with our spelling from time to time! I could add a dozen or so more letters to that word and it still wouldn't look right.), mass murder, untold human suffering, and economic disaster...it just has no practical application in the real world. You can't legislate individuality out of the human psyche, even when implemented by the very real threat of death/imprisonment. Every socialist "experiment" has resulted in nothing more than enslavement of the common people; read: Subjects.
I hope you stay around here on THR and continue to debate your point of view. I think you will find a thoughtful and compassionate bunch of folks here now that we realize that your purpose is not just to create controversy.
Sindawe
Member
See what I mean? QuckSpell does not catch that structure.
Andrew Rothman
Member
I get enough rude, irrational condescention at work. I don't need it from snot-nosed, ignorant children with delusions of rationality.
Baba Louie
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
- Messages
- 3,831
sense,
With respect, the debate is not over, it is never over. Not in this country, not in the UN, not where any one person or governing agency feels the need to control those free men and women who live within their jurisdiction or reach, not in any nation where one criminal or wild animals (same thing, different species) can strike harm and cause fear in another human being.
No, the debate is not over, unless you agree that only through the use of one particular type of tool invented some time ago, does one person have power (thus freedom) in their hands, in their control, and they use that tool and power properly.
It is an exercise in responsibility and self control that only a very few nations have recognized that the individual has that right, and that right, being given to mankind by a higher power, must be exercised to maintain a Free State.
By your statements, you feel that no one can be trusted. Maybe that is right in your nation. It also appears that you feel that your upbringing and thought process should be forced on all the world. You would not be the first. You will not be the last. As long as that is the case...The debate will continue.
And I will remain armed. As will my children. As was my father and his father before him. We are Americans. It is different in Ireland. So be it. It must work for you. It would not work here. We are way to used to freedom. Way to used to self control.
But can you do me a favor? There's a clan of Irish in and near Boston MA by the name of Kennedy. Could you call them back home soon??? Please?
Their thought process seems to match your own in several areas. I don't think they got the idea after all.
With respect, the debate is not over, it is never over. Not in this country, not in the UN, not where any one person or governing agency feels the need to control those free men and women who live within their jurisdiction or reach, not in any nation where one criminal or wild animals (same thing, different species) can strike harm and cause fear in another human being.
No, the debate is not over, unless you agree that only through the use of one particular type of tool invented some time ago, does one person have power (thus freedom) in their hands, in their control, and they use that tool and power properly.
It is an exercise in responsibility and self control that only a very few nations have recognized that the individual has that right, and that right, being given to mankind by a higher power, must be exercised to maintain a Free State.
By your statements, you feel that no one can be trusted. Maybe that is right in your nation. It also appears that you feel that your upbringing and thought process should be forced on all the world. You would not be the first. You will not be the last. As long as that is the case...The debate will continue.
And I will remain armed. As will my children. As was my father and his father before him. We are Americans. It is different in Ireland. So be it. It must work for you. It would not work here. We are way to used to freedom. Way to used to self control.
But can you do me a favor? There's a clan of Irish in and near Boston MA by the name of Kennedy. Could you call them back home soon??? Please?
Their thought process seems to match your own in several areas. I don't think they got the idea after all.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
A small caveat to add - inspired by a guy on another board, who teaches.
He tells his kids about ''issues'' and ''agendas''. Let me quote what he wrote - he says it well IMO ...
He tells his kids about ''issues'' and ''agendas''. Let me quote what he wrote - he says it well IMO ...
Ivy Mike
Member
Just an FYI, but violent crime is higher in the UK than it is in the US.
Hello Sense. Welcome to the High Road.
You have already seen posts made by Americans who have generally been brought up around guns and believing in the importance of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. You might like to hear from someone (myself) who is neither American, (I'm British) nor has been brought up with guns, but in recent years has come to believe the same as they have (having formerly thought much the same as you).
Firstly, a few factual corrections. You said:
Not true, at least in the UK. I am a member of my university's rifle club, and regularly use a rifle for target shooting. (Normally a .22, but last weekend we went to an outdoor range to use the larger 7.62mm rifles). So, although we have a lot of restrictions on gun ownership, it is still possible to own or use one.
I think you said in a later post that you would be scared to be near a gun (apologies if I misread). But you needn't be. A gun cannot do anything by itself, and as long as the person using it obeys some very simple safety rules, no harm will be done. I'm sure that my cycling through London to get to the rifle club is more dangerous that using the guns there.
As for there being no illegal guns in the UK, that is not true either.
Although it seems to have calmed down recently, a few months ago, there seemed to be a "firearms incident" in my neighborhood at least once a month. (Including an armed robbery literally round the corner from my house, where shots were fired at the police). All these crimes were committed using handguns, which have been totally banned in the UK since 1997. But these laws seem to have little effect on the availability or use of prohibited weapons. In fact, rates of gun crime have actually increased several fold since the band. Most gun crime is, I believe, related to the drug trade. I.e. by criminals whose entire industry revolves around importing and selling prohibited items.
Burglaries are also quite common. Every so often there is a story on the news about (e.g.) an elderly woman being beaten/stabbed, often fatally, in their own home by a burglar. And while I don't have any statistics to hand, I believe burglaries are much more common here than in the US, and the proportion of "hot" burglaries (where the homeowner is in at the time) is much greater. Mostly because in the US, burglary is much more dangerous for the burglar than it is in the UK.
As I said, not true. More and more criminals, including petty ones, are using guns in the UK.
Now to address some of your other points:
True. But there are many, many things in a house that are potentially dangerous. A good parent will keep where a child cannot get them. While you might want to protect children from negligent parents, it is not fair to prevent everybody from owning a device that can be life-saving (or even just enjoyable or useful) simply because some people would not use it properly. (Besides, someone who leaves a loaded gun where a child can get it is likely to leave bleach or medicine where they can reach it).
Did you mean to say "if you have a gun then your attacker will too"?
Legal gun owners and criminal gun users generally get their weapons from different sources. (Respectable shops, with various forms and background checks to work though depending on the State/Country, vs. illegal smugglers and dealers). Preventing normal, law-abiding citizens from owning guns has a negligible effect on criminal ownership.
But even if it did - what then? Criminals by their nature prey on those weaker than them. If no one had a gun, the criminals would attack people who are smaller or weaker than them (or use a kitchen knife or baseball bat or brick or other such deadly weapon). Or attack as a gang. In such a situation, you are at the mercy of the criminals. You cannot easily fight. You might be able to run, assuming you are a good runner. You can call the police, but they take time to arrive. (There was a recent case in the UK where a woman was murdered by her ex partner before the police had time to turn up). And in any case, even if you get away, the criminals are unlikely to have lost anything by threatening you.
As you said – they are the ones with no moral conscience. I would not want to stake my life on the benevolence of a violent criminal, especially one who was trying to rob me (or worse).e
One of the biggest differences that a gun would make is this: it gives the "victim" a chance. It’s not a magic talisman, but it means that a weak person can defend themselves against a strong person, or a gang. It makes it dangerous to be a criminal.
To put it another way:
I believe everyone has a natural right to life, and to freedom.
Unfortunately, some people don't believe that, and are willing to harm or destroy the life of others for their personal gain.
If someone has a right to life, then they must also have a right to defend it from those who would deny them that right. The law agrees - if the only way to defend your life is to kill your attacker, you are entitled to do so.
However, to do so, you must have the means to. Some people can defend themselves with their strength, or martial arts, etc. But some cannot. And some threats cannot be defended against that way either. A gun is merely a tool. But it is a tool that can be used to save your life, or the life of another.
True, most people will never "need" a gun. But if find it morally repugnant that "the powers that be" can say to a person with no criminal record or sign of dangerous behavior "The small risk of you being killed because you cannot defend yourself is a price we are willing to take, to avoid the tiny risk that you will misuse you defensive weapon".
I could say more about history and dictatorships, etc, and why I believe it is important that peoples (not just persons) are well armed, but this has got be quite a long post. If you want to hear more, I'll gladly tell you.
Hope this has been useful for you, or at least interesting.
You have already seen posts made by Americans who have generally been brought up around guns and believing in the importance of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. You might like to hear from someone (myself) who is neither American, (I'm British) nor has been brought up with guns, but in recent years has come to believe the same as they have (having formerly thought much the same as you).
Firstly, a few factual corrections. You said:
Not true, at least in the UK. I am a member of my university's rifle club, and regularly use a rifle for target shooting. (Normally a .22, but last weekend we went to an outdoor range to use the larger 7.62mm rifles). So, although we have a lot of restrictions on gun ownership, it is still possible to own or use one.
I think you said in a later post that you would be scared to be near a gun (apologies if I misread). But you needn't be. A gun cannot do anything by itself, and as long as the person using it obeys some very simple safety rules, no harm will be done. I'm sure that my cycling through London to get to the rifle club is more dangerous that using the guns there.
As for there being no illegal guns in the UK, that is not true either.
Although it seems to have calmed down recently, a few months ago, there seemed to be a "firearms incident" in my neighborhood at least once a month. (Including an armed robbery literally round the corner from my house, where shots were fired at the police). All these crimes were committed using handguns, which have been totally banned in the UK since 1997. But these laws seem to have little effect on the availability or use of prohibited weapons. In fact, rates of gun crime have actually increased several fold since the band. Most gun crime is, I believe, related to the drug trade. I.e. by criminals whose entire industry revolves around importing and selling prohibited items.
I'm not afraid to walk the streets. But people do get robbed, or worse, by gangs or loan criminals. Last autumn, for example, a man out walking at night in central London, in a popular tourist spot, was beaten to death by a gang of teenagers. And one of my housemates was mugged within about 100 yards of our home (fortunately not injured).
Burglaries are also quite common. Every so often there is a story on the news about (e.g.) an elderly woman being beaten/stabbed, often fatally, in their own home by a burglar. And while I don't have any statistics to hand, I believe burglaries are much more common here than in the US, and the proportion of "hot" burglaries (where the homeowner is in at the time) is much greater. Mostly because in the US, burglary is much more dangerous for the burglar than it is in the UK.
As I said, not true. More and more criminals, including petty ones, are using guns in the UK.
Now to address some of your other points:
True. But there are many, many things in a house that are potentially dangerous. A good parent will keep where a child cannot get them. While you might want to protect children from negligent parents, it is not fair to prevent everybody from owning a device that can be life-saving (or even just enjoyable or useful) simply because some people would not use it properly. (Besides, someone who leaves a loaded gun where a child can get it is likely to leave bleach or medicine where they can reach it).
The guns I have used have only ever been used for making holes in paper. There are people who post on this forum who have used a gun for defense. The idea that most guns are used for killing just doesn't fit the statistics.
Did you mean to say "if you have a gun then your attacker will too"?
Legal gun owners and criminal gun users generally get their weapons from different sources. (Respectable shops, with various forms and background checks to work though depending on the State/Country, vs. illegal smugglers and dealers). Preventing normal, law-abiding citizens from owning guns has a negligible effect on criminal ownership.
But even if it did - what then? Criminals by their nature prey on those weaker than them. If no one had a gun, the criminals would attack people who are smaller or weaker than them (or use a kitchen knife or baseball bat or brick or other such deadly weapon). Or attack as a gang. In such a situation, you are at the mercy of the criminals. You cannot easily fight. You might be able to run, assuming you are a good runner. You can call the police, but they take time to arrive. (There was a recent case in the UK where a woman was murdered by her ex partner before the police had time to turn up). And in any case, even if you get away, the criminals are unlikely to have lost anything by threatening you.
As you said – they are the ones with no moral conscience. I would not want to stake my life on the benevolence of a violent criminal, especially one who was trying to rob me (or worse).e
One of the biggest differences that a gun would make is this: it gives the "victim" a chance. It’s not a magic talisman, but it means that a weak person can defend themselves against a strong person, or a gang. It makes it dangerous to be a criminal.
To put it another way:
I believe everyone has a natural right to life, and to freedom.
Unfortunately, some people don't believe that, and are willing to harm or destroy the life of others for their personal gain.
If someone has a right to life, then they must also have a right to defend it from those who would deny them that right. The law agrees - if the only way to defend your life is to kill your attacker, you are entitled to do so.
However, to do so, you must have the means to. Some people can defend themselves with their strength, or martial arts, etc. But some cannot. And some threats cannot be defended against that way either. A gun is merely a tool. But it is a tool that can be used to save your life, or the life of another.
True, most people will never "need" a gun. But if find it morally repugnant that "the powers that be" can say to a person with no criminal record or sign of dangerous behavior "The small risk of you being killed because you cannot defend yourself is a price we are willing to take, to avoid the tiny risk that you will misuse you defensive weapon".
I could say more about history and dictatorships, etc, and why I believe it is important that peoples (not just persons) are well armed, but this has got be quite a long post. If you want to hear more, I'll gladly tell you.
Hope this has been useful for you, or at least interesting.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
iapetus - from a fellow (EX!) Brit - good post.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Woefully late, but I'll leave you with the following quote:
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
All I know of his 10-20 is he from FL.
one-shot-one
Member
Aguila Blanca
Member
Please use official government crime statistics to demonstrate again for us how much safer England is today (and particularly London) than it was, oh, say five years ago, before the goverment banned private ownership of firearms.
Ireland may still be relatively safe, but when you include England (and Scotland?) in your discussion it is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Ireland may still be relatively safe, but when you include England (and Scotland?) in your discussion it is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Test1968
Member
I wish you had made sense
All I can say to answer your tripe is please go ask Veronica Guerin about guns in Ireland.
All I can say to answer your tripe is please go ask Veronica Guerin about guns in Ireland.
Btw, Sense, if you're still around and loking for Sci-fi-looking guns, here are some good ones:
The first three are all real guns (even the FN F2000!). The last one is the "pulse rifle" from ]Aliens, which was made from real guns (a Thompson sub-machinegun and some sort of shotgun, with "spacy" decorations stuck on).
The first three are all real guns (even the FN F2000!). The last one is the "pulse rifle" from ]Aliens, which was made from real guns (a Thompson sub-machinegun and some sort of shotgun, with "spacy" decorations stuck on).
Attachments
![fn_tw_f2000_grenade[1].jpg](/data/attachments/15/15214-97ff2ea8bc07b57b94d82efb378dcaf6.jpg){kind=small}
Aguila Blanca
Member
You may ... but, as others have commented, it's unlikely.
Have you encountered the name of our writer and humourist, Mark Twain? Mark Twain once commented (I may have the ages wrong, but the point is unaltered) that "When I was 13 years old I was constantly embarrassed by my father's stupidity. When I reached the age of 21 I was astonished at how the old man had learned in those few years."
So, not to presume to speak for anyone other than myself, let's do a quick life experience check:
* Been in 19 countries
* Fought in one war (two medals, no wounds)
* Survived three serious automobile accidents (none of my own creation)
* Qualified as a professional automobile racer
* One state autocross championship (runner-up twice)
* Material witness in two Federal white collar crimes (when's the last time you wore a wire recorder to a meeting with your boss, followed by two FBI agents assigned to pull you out if the wire was discovered?)
* Recovered a house full of stolen property -- before the owners knew the house had been burglarized
* Qualified sailing instructor
* Published author
* Recovered two girls who were lost in the forest
There's more, but I see no need to toot my own horn beyond this. The point is that, with the zeal and enthusiasm of youth, you believe that you have already encountered a lot and done a lot. In the limited context of 19 years of life, such a view is understandable. Unfortunately, it is also incorrect. I submit that 99% of the respondents on this forum have seen and done so much more than you in terms of "life experience" that comparisons would be a waste of time.
I would also point out that you came here under false pretenses. I believe you indicated in one of your early posts that you wanted to learn. However, your subsequent posts demonstrate that you are not remotely interested in learning anything from us. You are interested only in trying to force us to accept your severely myopic perspective, and to agree with you. That is not going to take place. Therefore, if you wish to learn ... welcome. If, on the other hand, you wish only to prosletyze ... farewell.
bjbarron
Member
As a famous General once said...
Baloney
One day's news in Northern Irland...
Petrol bomb thrown at Tyrone Police Station
http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=61866&pt=n
Robbery in Armagh
http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=61881&pt=n
Gun Crime in Limerick
http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=61886&pt=n
Riot in Dungannon
http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=61873&pt=n
And in the Republic
Huge increase in violent crime...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1760781.stm
There is an old American saying..."don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining".
- Proud 1st Generation American-Irish...accent on American.
Baloney
One day's news in Northern Irland...
Petrol bomb thrown at Tyrone Police Station
http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=61866&pt=n
Robbery in Armagh
http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=61881&pt=n
Gun Crime in Limerick
http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=61886&pt=n
Riot in Dungannon
http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=61873&pt=n
And in the Republic
Huge increase in violent crime...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1760781.stm
There is an old American saying..."don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining".
- Proud 1st Generation American-Irish...accent on American.
brian roberts
Member
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2004
- Messages
- 153
NON...sense
(Profane personal attacks deleted.)
(Profane personal attacks deleted.)
Last edited by a moderator:
Aguila Blanca
Member
Excellent! Nicely done. Brian.
How very High Road of you. (Not!)
Last edited by a moderator:
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
Geez, is this thing still open? My apologies, folks.
(There are one or two of you to whom I'm not apologizing here . . . you'll be seeing PM's soon.)
(There are one or two of you to whom I'm not apologizing here . . . you'll be seeing PM's soon.)
- Status
