Irish stick fighting

[AStone]

As I've mentioned in numerous other threads over the last couple of years, I like sticks.

Short, medium and long. Doesn't matter. All are useful.

I'm 60, but I've used walking sticks since I was 10. Most of mine have been used in backpacking and mountaineering in the Rockies above treeline - like this collapsible Alpine CF by Black Diamond. It's great for walking on ice and snow (I now live in upper New England where we had about 8' of snow and ice this year), but it could make a formidable weapon if necessary. (That metal tip is very hard, and very suitable for thrusts.)

Most of my sticks, however, are wood. I flirted for a while with FMA.
I still like the concept, but it's harder to carry those sticks in public without drawing attention.

So, recently, I discovered Irish stick fighting (ISF).
It employs a more traditional walking stick.

I'm most fond of the two-handed style promoted by Glen Doyle. I haven't studied with him yet, but intend to.
Most of my study of that martial art so far is by studying his videos.
(Start here; from there find 2 and 3), but I intend to take a seminar with him.

The two-handed style offers much versatility and power,
and is for me, a stick dude for 50 years, nearly intuitive.
I can practice basic strikes while I walk ... daily,
often for miles.

A few weeks ago, I purchased a quality, fine ash knob stick.
(Pics forth coming). I carry it daily on walks in a medium-sized city.
I've walked right by numerous police, and never raised an eyebrow.

I intend to add more knob sticks to my kit:
blackthorn, oak, crabapple, maple ...

So, in this thread, I'd like to explore this martial art.
I'm going to focus on Glen Doyle's style,
but there are other styles of ISF,
and I'm open to learning from them.

Anyone else studied or interested in ISF?
If so, I hope you'll share your knowledge.

I've learned some things about it in the last few months
and will share what I've learned here.

 

[AStone]

I purchased a quality, fine ash knob stick.

 

[janobles14]

beautiful work!

 

[country boy marksman]

that is a beautiful stick to be so useful/deadly! Being in the Boy Scouts, I often carry a walking stick for the same reasons, and often play a game using a stick in which two people stand facing each other with one foot forward of the other, with the outside of that front foot touching the outside of the other person's front foot, they then grasp the stick with both hands and "fight" over the stick. the object of the game is to make the other person loose their footing. It provides good training for fighting with a walking stick, in my opinion, and it's fun! that's just my $.02!

PS, I agree, using a stick for SD provides a great advantage over someone with a knife or even a gun if you're creative and lucky, and looks very inconspicuous!

 

[AStone]

...using a stick for SD provides
a great advantage over someone with a knife ...

Agree strongly with that part.

Less sure about the gun ...

 

[shiftyer1]

You mention walking by police, etc. and not raising an eyebrow. You also said your 60 years old, it's really common seeing a man of your age with a cane. I wonder how it would work for someone younger with no visable need for a cane? I'm 33 and have often wondered about starting to carry a cane but I don't no how inconspicuous it would be.

 

[AStone]

Shiftyer, here, with 8' of snow, which is melting now during the day with slightly warmer temps,
but freezing again at sundown (*), it's completely normal to carry a walking stick.

* Last night, on a college campus, I watched a 20-something wipe out while he was riding a mtb (mountain bike)
when he hit slick ice. He landed on his butt instead of his teeth, but it reminded me of why a stick is important for walking.

For the record: most of the time I'm walking with said stick, it is carried horizontally
as I walk very fast, aerobically, across flat ground. The tip only touches ground
when I'm walking on the really slick stuff that could wipe out a mtb,
which I also own and ride. How I will attach this stick
to the mtb remains to be seen.

 

[AStone]

I've learned some things about it in the last few months
and will share what I've learned here.

OK, here goes.

If one holds the stick in both hands in low ready position,
one can very rapidly bring said stick up to high ready
if a threat becomes immanent.

Imagine holding a 39" hardwood stick in front of you
with both hands on 13" centers at shoulder level.
It has a large, obnoxious burl on one end.

One could push the right or the left side (explosively)
into an abdomen, pelvis, knee, chest, neck
or head, using either hand, quickly.

If forced into it, one could push (explosively)
the shaft up into a trachea, collapsing it,
stopping breath and ...

(I know quickly, having practiced that move.)

In addition, one could swing the entire stick
against a knee, pelvis, arm or head
using either hand (choked up).

One could also simply hold said stick at 1/3 length,
spring loaded with the off hand and
extend the head or tail explosively
toward an attacker. (Needs video.)

Versatility. Power ...

 

[shiftyer1]

I just read thru your cane thread, it was very interesting to me. We've used pvc pipe to secure a cane to a motorcycle, something like that may work on a bike although you'll have to be creative due to length.

 

[shiftyer1]

I thought Minnesota was bad which was why I left, you can have your 8 feet of snow!

 

[AStone]

you can have your 8 feet of snow!

Maine is different from Minnesota.
Down east is different in a way that
most cannot grok until you are here ...

 

[shiftyer1]

Actually I don't mind the snow just the temperature's that go with it, after moving south for about 5 years I went back home in the winter and could barely walk due to foot pain! I guess I froze my feet too many times when I was a kid being foolish.

If you don't mind my asking what does a stick like to one you posted go for? It's very attractive. I have some questions but they are probably better posted in your cane thread.

 

[AStone]

$100, mas o menos.

 

[Carl Levitian]

[quote Shiftyer1; You mention walking by police, etc. and not raising an eyebrow. You also said your 60 years old, it's really common seeing a man of your age with a cane. I wonder how it would work for someone younger with no visable need for a cane? I'm 33 and have often wondered about starting to carry a cane but I don't no how inconspicuous it would be.]

Shifty, I was just past 30 when I had a constructipn accident while serving in the army engineers. They gave me a medical discharge after 10 years service anbd I needed a cane. I didn't have much of a limp, and on a good day, walked pretty normal. Only needed the cane for uneven ground and stairs, things like that. This was 1971. Nobody ever gave me a time about my carrying the Irish blackthorn stick I used rather than the old fogy crook top cane. As I went through my 30's, it was only once in a great while somebody would ask "Why the stick?" and I'd just tell them an old injury bothers me a bit. After a while, the stick just became part of me, and I don't think people even noticed it anymore. It becomes part of your persona. If someone does have the gall to ask "Why the stick?" you can just tell them an old injury bothers you time to time. It could be anything, old bicycle accident, snow boarding, racket ball. But the bottom line is, now with the Americans With Disabilities Act, they can't pry. If a cop starts asking too many questions, he's in danger of being a big time contributor to your retirement fund.

If a cop asks, all you have to tell him is an old injury is bothering you. I'm not sure he even has the right to ask that far, but I'm usually civil to that point. Any questions past that point is none of his business, and if he still prys, all you need to tell him is that you're medical records are private. At that point he's harassing you, and you need to tell him to get his supervisor on scene. I did this at the Frederick Walmart when a county sheriffs deputy was over impressed with himself. I told him, then ended up demanding to see his sgt. Just a very few minutes after his shift sgt's arrival, the deputy ended up apologizing to me. He got a lesson in The Disabilities Act.


Go ahead and carry a walking stick. Nothing against any laws, and last time I checked yesterday, it was still a semi-free country!.

Carl.

 

[Cosmoline]

Nema, that's almost *too* nice looking! I'd be a bit worried about it getting swiped.

Is there training cross-over between stick and baton fighting, or are they substantially different?

Please note, I am resisting the temptation to make a joke on this thread about alcohol.

 

[hso]

Is there training cross-over between stick and baton fighting, or are they substantially different?

Very different.

Nem,

Have you had a chance to get together with a trainer or sparing partner to work on any of the material that you've read about Irish Stick Fighting yet? Did you find that the dynamics of working with a partner/trainer made some of the material more or less relevant?

 

[AStone]

Carl, Cosmo and Hso so glad you guys have joined the conversation.
(Shifty, janobles and country boy, I'm glad you guys are here, too.)

Carl, your wealth of knowledge about canes and cane arts is very welcome here.

Cosmo, great question about cross-over. I hope someone can inform us.
(added by edit: I see Hso has joined us with an answer; I look forward to more explanation.)

The sun is shining very brightly out right now, melting more snow,
so I'm going for a long afternoon walk with a nice stick to help out on the icy patches.

More later ...

Oh, one more quick ps: I literally do have a trick hip. No winks; for real. It doesn't happen often - usually on the order of months between incidents, but for years, sometime my right hip just ... switches almost instantly into "I'm not going to support your weight" mode. Without a stick, I wouldn't get home as easily.

 

[hso]

Cosmo, Nem,

Having trained in asp/baton/escrima/chinese baton/cane techniques and having casually played with a group of Celtic enthusiasts once with bata/cane (that I won't attribute as real training), but having read a bit more on it, the basics seemed to be pretty different. I attribute those differences primarily due to the sizes of the weapons involved. The baton is much shorter than the cane and dictates different techniques. There seem to be cultural differences as well since the use of cane length weapons in the eastern styles I've been exposed to focused less on smashing power and blocking and more on striking speed and deflection (if that makes sense).

As Nem points out, Doyl Irish Stick fighting is primarily a two-hands-on stick style more like some of the eastern Jo stick forms although the old manuals that I've seen showed single stick with cudgels as well as two handed bata. Current baton/small stick is primarily one handed (or reinforcing off hand at the base/wrist) and far more eastern in style. While there are some one hand techniques in cane length Irish Stick the focus is primarily two handed because of the length. They seem to be much more like chopping and "jabbing" than the more circular baton strikes. As I said, I assume that length is the primary influence, but there are differences in western vs. eastern stick techniques that seem cultural since you can find the same tools in each, but used differently. Still and all, very different techniques.

Nem,

Have you found that the work you've done in the Doyle Family style with a trainer or sparing partner is more focused on "chopping" and "blocking" than circular striking/deflecting? The two handed "shove" using a cane/baton is remarkably effective if done explosively from the ground/feet/knees/hips at a slightly upward angle. I've been sent flying back an easy 4-6 feet by a much slighter person than myself (thank heavens for chest protectors) when they exploded from a rooted stance.

 

[hso]

BTW, a canvas heavy bag will not withstand much abuse from sticks/canes. Protective covers will be needed to prevent breaking the bag (carpet and duct tape is cheap and durable even if it is ugly as sin).

 

[AStone]

Decided to eat lunch before heading out, so am rereading posts from last night.

(PS: Hso, just saw your post that you put up while I was writing this. Reading now....)

beautiful work!

that is a beautiful stick to be so useful/deadly!

Nema, that's almost *too* nice looking!

Thanks for the complements, guys.

I agree, it's a beautiful stick. I actually got to see if before I bought it. The person I purchased it from has a web site with a general description of them. I wrote him inquiring about the ash sticks. He said he had 3 in stock, made in Britain, and actually sent me pics of all three to let me choose which one I wanted. That one was love at first site. (He's a good business person. He's got two more now; if you want his contact info, just PM me.)

It's ash but has been "scorched" (I think that's the term) with fire to bring out the grain.

It feels great in my hand. The balance is exceptional. I wasn't sure I was going to like the knob, but it's working out great. I can hold it securely forward or reverse.

I often play a game using a stick .... the object of the game is to make the other person loose their footing. It provides good training for fighting with a walking stick,

That's a very cool game. I'm going to try it. I can imagine that weight would be an advantage, and I don't have much of that. But being an avid dancer (often for exercise on the edge of aerobic and anaerobic), I have very good balance.

 

[AStone]

Hso: very well said! Great points. I suspected that your experience in martial arts and stick arts was going to add a lot to this thread, and I was right.

Your question about my experience with Glen Doyle's style is a good one, and important, and I want to take some time with a response. But I'm almost finished with lunch, the bright warm sun is moving quickly westward, and I'm pining for a long walk in a nearby woods (even though I won't get far because I don't have my snowshoes here on the east coast yet, so I'll postpone my response for later.

This is a great thread so far, just what I was hoping for: a learning experience.

I can tell I'm going to learn much from some great mentors and fellow enthusiasts here. Thanks.

Nem

 

[hso]

Heavy saber face masks or other heavier head/face protectors, hand, and arm protectors are important even if not contact sparring because accidents will happen (broken nose, smashed/dislocated fingers, bruises, bruises, bruises as proof). A tree or post wrapped in carpet or a tire man and carpet will save your heavy bag for empty hand training.

Sticks not only hurt in practice, but they can injure, even when contact isn't planned, but live practice is the best way to "feel" what works and doesn't.

 

[AStone]

One more minor point before going for a walk.

I'm planning to add one of these to my stick.

Note that it's a brass ferrule with a removable ice spike.
Much better (*) and more aesthetic than the rubber tip that came with the stick.

(* I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a thrust with that ice spike attached.)

I just need to find someone in town with woodworking tools and skills,
because installation requires more than a handsaw and rasp.

 

[AStone]

Here's the THR equivalent of a Facebook "like".

A tree or post wrapped in carpet or a tire man and carpet will save your heavy bag for empty hand training.

 

[Carl Levitian]

I'd be very interested in trying some training for Irish stick fighting, but I worry that it would confuse my default mussel memory. Even after going through baton and koga training in the police acadamy in Colorado back in the mid 70's, the two times I've had to use my walking stick, 20 years apart, I went into a kind of default without thinking. I reverted to my old army pugil stick training, and used the ends of the stick. I wonder if it would be an improvement, or should I leave well enough alone? I'm torn on the issue. But Glen Doyal's stuff does look interesting.

All our army pugil stick and riot stick training was two hands that never let go of the stick with either hand. They really pounded that into our skulls.

Carl.