Koppo sticks : dimensions, materials & other considerations

[hso]

Careful not to over-complicate things with a series of rigid attachments that interfere with the use of the tool.

 

[conw]

This is a secondary pin attached to the split ring. Got it at harbor freight. They are used to prevent lateral movement in sturdier primary locking pins in machinery.

 

[hso]

Ohhhh, you're using an "R" clip as a pocket clip. Gottcha.

I like the Stinger, but the TSA is on to them so they might not pass inspection. Still, they're a great purpose built defensive gizmo. In clear or candy colors with keys attached they get less criticism by casual observers. Most folks are confused about them anyway and a simple, "Shiatsu pressure point massage" explanation serves.

We've wandered a bit far off track, so back to pocket sticks.

Materials don't matter much once you get beyond softwood for small hand defensive tools. Their use is such that they're effective as long as they're at least of hardwood. Even Zytel or other plastics will do. Being tethered to a pocket stick isn't advocated by some of the experienced practioners and we discourage that idea simply because they introduce problems a tool you won't be entangled by don't. Some of us advocate using an easily explained every day item for defensive tools over purpose built tools. We've found these things are eventually discarded or migrate to the bottom of the pocket or bag and aren't readily available at the moment of need. Years of experience have taught us that what we thought was a kewl tool eventually just takes up too much immediate access space in the real world lives of most folks so we advocate going with something mundane that fits the role.

 

[Persev]

Although not the specific answer you're looking for,you may want to consider an ASP or Monadnock collapsible baton,it can be used as a fist load with the added option of a stick length piece of steel if needed.Although this does fall into the "carrying for self defense" category versus "I just grabbed my pen and hit him".

You might also want to check out Michael Echanis' book on stick fighting,there is an interesting section on using a shorter stick for attacking an opponents bones that comes from Hwa Rang Do.The idea is that the right length stick and using the lanyard attached to it allows you to strike and set up a "vibration" which can shatter the bone.It's a bit esoteric but the upside is if the bone doesn't shatter it's still going to be very painful.

 

[AStone]

Michael Echanis' book on stick fighting...

Here's the Amazon page.

Here are excerpts on Google books.

Interesting stuff. It appears he doesn't deal specifically with kuboton/koppo, but sounds like some of the short stick methods could be useful/adaptable. Will have to pick up a copy. One reviewer claims he died before finishing the book, so some details are short, but still a useful book, he said.

Thanks for posting it.

 

[AStone]

Question about ends: tapered v flat v domed

Ok, you've got my attention re the loops, etc,

So today, I'm leaning towards going back to a basic kubotan to start with.

Something inexpensive, like the Alpha Innovations.

So, question: they have three standard ones. Two are flat end and domed end. These are 6", which still seem long to me given my smaller hands.

Here is their tapered.
It is (5.25") and diameter.

Pros and cons of each?

My intuition says either tapered or domed.

Yes, I understand the tapered will concentrate more force on a smaller pressure point,
but I can intuit some benefit of a domed, not the least of which is that it seems less weapon-like.
_______

Oh, a note about making my own from a bolt or a wooden dowel. I have no vehicle currently, there is about 3 - 4' of snow on the ground, sidewalks impassable by bike, and it's a long way to the nearest hardware. Plus, I have a very limited set of hand tools with me (remember, I moved here in a backpack and duffel bag), including no saw.

So, I'm just inclined to get something ready made to start with.

 

[conw]

I like the Stinger, but the TSA is on to them so they might not pass inspection. Still, they're a great purpose built defensive gizmo. In clear or candy colors with keys attached they get less criticism by casual observers. Most folks are confused about them anyway and a simple, "Shiatsu pressure point massage" explanation serves.

R-clip...dammit hso I knew you'd come up with the right phrase, no matter how well or poorly I described it!

(edited to add: I never try to take them on flights; I just stick them in my checked luggage.)

Anyway I usually let it ride from a belt loop at 1 o'clock if my shirt's untucked, or inside a pocket clipped to the edge of the pocket if I need to hide it. Today it's clipped inside a sport coat pocket.

Back to pocket sticks, Nematocyst, the offer still stands for the metal kubotan with an R-clip attached, if you want it mailed to you. Free! If you don't like it give it to someone else. I think I like the feel of metal ones better than plastic ones personally.

C

 

[AStone]

Nematocyst, the offer still stands for the metal kubotan with an R-clip attached, if you want it mailed to you. Free! If you don't like it give it to someone else. I think I like the feel of metal ones better than plastic ones personally.

Conwict, I totally forgot about your kind offer.

I'll pm you about it after work ... got something pressing going on at the moment.

Thanks!

 

[hso]

And don't forget small flashlights that are the right size and diameter.

 

[conw]

That was a thought I had too but forgot to post. I want to go home to be sure and hold it in my hand but deal extreme has a particular flashlight that was 15.00 shipped free from Hong Kong and it runs on AA. Not the BEST in terms of modes (you cycle through modes and can't have presets - there are 5 modes) but very very bright, and good fit and finish. My untrained eye says 120+ lumens for sure. And properly sized for kubotan use, with a neat wire pocket clip a la spyderco. Oh, and if that one is too short I know they have something that would work.

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/police-3w-led-flashlight-2xaa-10902 This one is very inexpensive, I might not get it, but it's a "why not" situation if you want to get it and compare to other things. But for a few dollars more...

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/akoray...umen-memory-led-flashlight-1-aa-1-14500-28546 This one is in a sling bag I have as well as my BOB. Can't find a better cheap light for EDC. 3.78" COULD work for striking but is a bit on the small side.

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/ultraf...ashlight-with-2xaa-extension-tube-bundle-7938 This one I gave to my dad a year or two ago and it works fabulously. You can unscrew the threaded extension tube and use 1xAA, or 2xAA - and it is the perfect heft/size for a pocket stick. And it has a clip.

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/ultraf...ashlight-with-extension-tube-1-cr2-2-aa-14909 No experience here but a more classical styling, and it takes 2xAA or CR batts.

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/mxdl-zd-5w-led-flashlight-2xaa-3v-8788 Cheaper 2xAA option.

Check the reviews. My strong suggestion is the Ultrafire C3 but another may appeal to you...the reviewers on DealExtreme may be 12-17 but they sure know their technology

 

[MillCreek]

I used to be a kubotan instructor. Over about 25 years of collecting, I have a wide variety of koppos, kubotans, tactical pens, small batons, flashlights and similar objects. They are in a variety of woods, metals and polymers and weigh from one to six ounces. Weight is only important insofar as it lightens my carry load. Since I use a pocket stick as a leverage and pressure point tool, I don't need weight as a striking tool.

With all those choices available to me, I now consistently carry one item: a Stanley FatMax Extreme Marker http://www.stanleytools.com/default...7-314&SDesc=Fat+Max®+Xtreme™+Marker

It raises no eyebrows at the airport or courthouse, is extremely sturdy, is light weight and is the perfect size and shape for my needs. It costs $ 4 for a two-pack at Lowe's, so if I lose or break one, I am not out much. I carry it in my dress shirt at work or in the inside pocket of my suit jacket. In casual attire, it is clipped inside my right front pants pocket. And if all else fails, I can use it as a permanent marker. It is not visibly a lethal or less-than-lethal weapon, unlike some of my other tools, Sharkie pen or tactical pens. This will be important from a liability perspective should I ever have to use it.

 

[hso]

Millcreek,

I carry the same sort of marker in my computer case for the same reason.

 

[conw]

"This will be important from a liability perspective should I ever have to use it."

Do you think a civil suit will be less likely to award damages because you didn't "use a weapon" when you hurt someone else with an object? I'm actually asking this.

 

[AStone]

That's actually a good question, Conwict. I sort of wondered about that,
but never fully articulated it in my mind to ask.

 

[JShirley]

Intent counts a lot, sometimes.

 

[MillCreek]

"This will be important from a liability perspective should I ever have to use it."

Do you think a civil suit will be less likely to award damages because you didn't "use a weapon" when you hurt someone else with an object? I'm actually asking this.

I was speaking of both criminal and civil liability. And yes, in a case involving the application of less-than-lethal force, using something that is not explicitly designed as a weapon may count for a great deal in the decision to either bring criminal charges or the awarding of substantial civil damages against you.

As an example, you are walking through a park and you are set upon by a gang of ruffians threatening bodily harm to you. You defend yourself either using a cane, or using a collapsible baton. Which scenario do you think is more likely to result in criminal charges and/or substantial civil liability against you?

 

[AStone]

You defend yourself either using a cane, or using a collapsible baton. Which scenario do you think is more likely to result in criminal charges and/or substantial civil liability against you?

Ok, good example. I understand.

But let's push this a bit.

By that reasoning, everyone here on THR should give up their guns - which obviously are weapons - and buy canes and permanent markers, out of fear that by carrying a revolver or semi-auto in CCW for SD, they will be prosecuted for said self-defense.

In this scenario, koppo/kubtotan = gun, where as Stanley Marker = cane.

Just playing devil's advocate here.

 

[MillCreek]

Please note that my example was deliberately set as a situation calling for less-than-lethal force, not lethal force. If a situation calls for lethal force, I have less concern, from a criminal or civil liability perspective, in using a tool specifically designed for the job.

Although there are some that will argue (I am not one of them) that using the latest tricked-out tacticool weapon or ammo may again raise the risk of some zealous prosecutor going after you in terms of criminal charges. The usual argument is that your use of such weapons or ammo showed 'depraved indifference to human life' or the like. I have not heard of this happening in real life, but I have not made a study of it, and criminal law is not my specialty anyway. I tend to think it would not make much difference from a civil liability perspective.

Most people, unless they have lots of liquid assets, would not be very attractive targets for civil liability after a self-defense situation anyway. There just is not enough accessible money to make it worthwhile to pursue a suit for the average plaintiff lawyer. Since in the majority of jurisdictions, there is no coverage under the typical homeowner's/personal liability umbrella insurance coverage, there are no big insurance payouts that can be sought in a lawsuit.

 

[hso]

In this scenario, koppo/kubtotan = gun, where as Stanley Marker = cane.

Ummm, don't think that relationship follows. The marker is functionally the same as the kubaton, but there's a huge inequality between the gun and cane. Canes and maces, kubatons and markers/pens, daggers and common pocket knives. From a probable legal standpoint an item that isn't a dedicated weapon design is going to be viewed very differently when the question of intent is involved. The fact that day after day carrying a defensive tool that has a real world utility role won't get a second look and will be at hand because of the daily use.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I used to be a kubotan instructor. Over about 25 years of collecting, I have a wide variety of koppos, kubotans, tactical pens, small batons, flashlights and similar objects. They are in a variety of woods, metals and polymers and weigh from one to six ounces. Weight is only important insofar as it lightens my carry load. Since I use a pocket stick as a leverage and pressure point tool, I don't need weight as a striking tool.

With all those choices available to me, I now consistently carry one item: a Stanley FatMax Extreme Marker http://www.stanleytools.com/default...7-314&SDesc=Fat+Max®+Xtreme™+Marker

It raises no eyebrows at the airport or courthouse, is extremely sturdy, is light weight and is the perfect size and shape for my needs. It costs $ 4 for a two-pack at Lowe's, so if I lose or break one, I am not out much. I carry it in my dress shirt at work or in the inside pocket of my suit jacket. In casual attire, it is clipped inside my right front pants pocket. And if all else fails, I can use it as a permanent marker. It is not visibly a lethal or less-than-lethal weapon, unlike some of my other tools, Sharkie pen or tactical pens. This will be important from a liability perspective should I ever have to use it.

Now that is thinking outside the box. I can just see the look of a jury when a Lawyer trys to convice them you hurt his client with a Majic Marker. LOL! I have used a standard sharpie as a pressure point tool with a person who didn't want to let a railing go.

 

[hso]

http://www.sharpie.com/enUS/Product...ionalChiselTipPermanentMarker(Sharpie Catalog)

 

[MillCreek]

http://www.sharpie.com/enUS/Product...StainlessSteelPermanentMarker(Sharpie Catalog)

I also have a couple of these, and they are definitely flimsier than the Stanley FatMax marker. I am going to have to try to find and look at that Sharpie Professional marker shown above, though.

PS: Oops, even though I copied the link directly to the steel Sharpie, the link takes you to the catalog. It is the item listed as Sharpie stainless steel permanent marker.

 

[JShirley]

By that reasoning, everyone here on THR should give up their guns - which obviously are weapons - and buy canes and permanent markers, out of fear that by carrying a revolver or semi-auto in CCW for SD, they will be prosecuted for said self-defense.

This is absolutely ludicrous, and seems indicative of a steadfast drive to ignore explanations given by several of us, such as

this,
this, and
this (where I specifically say that the best part of using something like this is that it can be taken into a non-weaponized environment).

Intent to cause harm is especially important when viewing the use of nontraditional weapons or improvised weapons. Firearms are recognized as (potentially) lethal force options commonly used by police, the military, and lawful concealed carry holders. It is when using other tools that intent to cause harm becomes a much more important factor.

It is becoming tiresome providing responses for someone who frequently criticizes the effort, and seems intent on complaining that our responses, no matter how thoughtful, experienced, or explicit, are not what he actually wanted.

Koppo sticks should be just as worthy of 2A.

Absolutely ridiculous. A koppo stick wielded by the most accomplished MA practitioner will not stop an armed enemy at 300 meters, and there is no specific protection for sticks in the Constitution.

Should I take my questions elsewhere?

Perhaps you should, since you rarely seem to receive the responses you're looking for here.

John

 

[AStone]

Just in case you missed this point,
which was included in the same post as quoted first in post 48.

Just playing devil's advocate here.

Devil's advocates risk flames to promote discussion which is required for clarity and what Internet forums are all about. Sometimes a devil's advocate position is purposefully ludicrous to stimulate thorough responses, which sometimes wind up being one liners.

Thanks for your substantive responses.

Furthermore ...

Should I take my questions elsewhere?

... was a question that I asked in post 9, before substantive responses were offered to my questions.

Subsequent responses have been excellent.

I appreciate the discussion. Good points made by all.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I love threads like this they expand my mind on what I can carry into the Court House and at my School without getting me into any trouble. I will be getting a Stanley marker and a Metal Sharpie to go with my SS Zebra inkpen.