Koppo sticks : dimensions, materials & other considerations

[AStone]

I have a few questions about Koppo sticks, a new interest. I plan to buy one this week. I've searched "koppo" in this sub-forum, and read what's there (back a little ways, at least, and the mods don't always like older threads to be reopened). But I've still got some questions.

First, some background. As my sig line indicates, I'm into sticks.

Most of the sticks I've owned and used since I was a kid (5 decades ago) have been longer ones, like walking sticks.

I've explored - though not seriously trained in - FMA.
(Not for lack of interest, just couldn't find a nearby school.)

Recently, I've become interested in Irish stick fighting (of the type taught by Glen Doyle), and have acquired a very nice ash knob stick. I'm practicing the techniques as best I can by video (Toronto is a long ways from me but I do hope to get over there eventually, or to find one of his students who also teach that technique.).

For some time, I've also been researching what one might call "shorter sticks" or what some call "pocket sticks": kubotans, yawara, and koppo, in particular. There's a fair amount of information out there about these SD weapons, and I've read most of it.

Here's one interesting and helpful essay by Don Rearic.

Here's another by The Martialist (who provided me the link for Don R's page), but this one is more of a general overview of "pocket sticks" with more focus on kubotans. (Interesting and useful, nonetheless.)

For now, I'll just say that, for me, a koppo stick seems most reasonable to start with. (I won't list the reasons here, but am willing to explain later if anyone cares; in fact, it might make the discussion interesting, and perhaps I can learn some things. But that can wait.)

For now, my main question is, which one. The two sub-questions that underpin that decision is, which material is best (with regard to hardness and mass), and what length is optimal?

Over the last few weeks, I've identified two top candidates:

* Alpha Innovations: 6" length, 5/8" diameter, "light weight polymer" 1.2 oz, one end drilled for a lanyard (yes, I want one). I would probably go with the "dome" (rounded) end; just an intuition. $11 with inexpensive shipping.

* Boker SO4PRO-K: stainless steel (they also make a titanium, but it's not in my budget), 5.25" length, diameter 0.55" (close to 9/16", so smaller than the AI); 5 oz weight, comes with lanyard. Here's a video review in German language (I have no clue what he's saying) with distracting background visuals, but it gives one a sense of the stick. The stainless steel is black; the titanium is silver/gray. In the $20 range plus shipping.

Yes, I've looked at Cold Steel's polymer stick, and read reviews; it's not for me; diameter is too large (reviewers pointed that out).

There are also some beautiful hard wooden ones available, but again, not in my budget.

Eventually, perhaps I might want to try both, but I'm pinching pennies right now.

So, here are my questions.

* How relevant is stainless steel over polymer? My intuition says, stainless steel is harder than the polymer, and thus potentially marginally more effective. But I'd like to hear opinions. (I guess the other factor is, the Boker just looks nicer; very aesthetic lines, etc.)

* About the weight: 5 oz v 1.2 oz is substantial. My intuition says, up to a point, heavier is better (since force and mass are related, but then there's that acceleration thing ... ; 5 oz is still very manageable. But I'd like to hear opinions.

* I have small hands, so it seems to me that the Boker at 5.25" and smaller diameter is more suitable than the AI at 6". I've held a ruler to examine this. I don't feel I need that much stick sticking out on both sides of my hand. From what I've seen of videos and techniques, it would seem contraindicated: no need for that much leverage, the point is the point (so to speak), and a longer one could give the BG an advantage to disarm (more to grab, more leverage for twisting). But, if others who use Koppo sticks have a good reason for the extra length, I'm listening.

* One minor but potentially relevant detail is the grooves. The AI has multiple grooves in the palm area. The Boker has grooves only at the top end (the hammer strike end). Thoughts?

Thanks in advance for opinions, especially from those who may have actually used koppo sticks.

Nem

 

[ambidextrous1]

I have no experience with these, but have thought about them for some time. They should be effective against the opponent's joints (like the LEOs are trained for "pain compliance" with the PR 24).

A flat ended conical point on the stick would increase force concentration substantially, with potentially lethal results when applied to the head.

I have large hands, and would appreciate the greater heft in a 3/4 inch diameter stick; but as you said. a 5 1/2 to 6 inch stick should be adequate.

I'm considering making one of my own design, that would include finger grooves and the two-finger retention lanyard shown in the link. The material would be stainless, brass or carbon steel. I'll be watching this thread for additional ideas, especially from the "pros"; I'm just a neophyte.

Comments on the legality of these sticks are always useful.

 

[JShirley]

"Get a sturdy pen."

 

[Carl Levitian]

I've always been very leary of the outright martial arts weapons that have no real use in the real world. I don't wnat to have some over eager assistant district attorney to have a field day as to why I am carrying an object that has no use aside from being designed to hurt someone. I've worked too darn hard in my life to reach this stage where my house is paid off, I have zero debt, and have some nice retirement funds doing well, to have some low life with a fast lawyer sue me because while said low life was trying to mug me, I broke his jaw or gave him brain damage by hitting him with something called a jaw jacker, or head knocker special or some other hyped up martial art weapon.

They'd have a heck of a time convincing a jury that my Cross pen or AA mini mag flashlight was a deadly weapon. Life is tough enough with unforseen pitfallls to give them ammo to fire back at me. We live in very strange times, and it pays to be veeery careful out there. I intend to look as innocent as possible.

 

[AStone]

OK, interesting perspectives on sturdy pens and concerns about district attorneys,
but I'm still hoping to read answers to my explicit questions.

 

[hso]

I carry a pen.

 

[AStone]

Well, that's cool.

I hope you are happy with your pen.

But I'm still interested in answers to my questions.

I'm finding the responses to this thread interesting, yet perplexing.

This is a gun forum, 2A and all. Yet mods and admins
seem unwilling to answer questions about a short stick,
which will confer far less damage than a bullet.

What's up?

 

[hso]

We 're suggesting getting something that will be used in a utilitarian role day in day out that you'll actually have on you that you can use for the defensive purpose you're looking for instead of some single purpose specialized piece of kit that won't be carried after the third week.

 

[AStone]

And yet I'm asking straight up questions that are
just as reasonable as asking about .308, .30-30 or .38 spl,
but less lethal. Koppo sticks should be just as worthy of 2A.

Should I take my questions elsewhere?

... some single purpose specialized piece of kit that won't be carried after the third week.

What?

I've already got a pocket designated for it.

This is really interesting to me.

I carry an ash knob stick everyday,
and a kali stick (when I carry the full pack).

Why do you think that you understand what I will carry and what I will not?

 

[hso]

Nem,

Try some inexpensive wooden dowels in various diameters and lengths and settle on what is comfortable and easily carried. Once you settle on something look at an equivalent piece of steel tubing or a bolt. Don't spend money on a final product until you experiment with inexpensive scrap materials and carry them around a while.

After you've done this and found what works you'll eventually quit carrying the thing because it doesn't do anything that fits into your day to day life. It will simply not be convenient enough to carry every day.

John and I have been down this road and just want to point you to the shortcut we all wish we'd taken.

 

[AStone]

I'll consider it after sleep, Hso.

For the record, if the admins and mods had just been straight up
rather than cryptic since post 3, we could have save a lot of ...

Still seeking some straight up answers to my questions.

Just for the record.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Not Just Any Pen

I have -- and carry regularly -- one of these Embassy pens:

It's machined from a solid billet of aluminum. The surface bands are knurled.

The cap and body joint are threaded. When the pen is closed, and held in the hand, it has all the properties of a short, rigid metal rod.

There is nothing even remotely flimsy about this pen.

They also do the same pen in stainless (which is heavier) and now, just introduced, in titanium (which is lighter) as well.

I can't help you with the "official" koppo sticks, but I can vouch for this pen.

 

[conw]

Quote:
...

Recently, I've become interested in Irish stick fighting (of the type taught by Glen Doyle), and have acquired a very nice ash knob stick. I'm practicing the techniques as best I can by video (Toronto is a long ways from me but I do hope to get over there eventually, or to find one of his students who also teach that technique.).

After looking at the linked video in your sig I don't really think that the Irish style will lend itself to koppo/kubotan/short stick style. If you look at a lot of Irish stick fighting videos, the problems are they are typically stick vs stick, using long (4'+) sticks. I don't really think this applies in any way to use of a short stick in a street scenario.

I do think drilling knife type drills would help ingrain the movements. I just got some DVDs that may be relevant, Drawpoint I-III by Jim Keating and Shivworks' Volume I on the knife. Both of these guys advocate a comprehensive system of movements that are very similar and that is self-contained, so you ingrain the same gross motor skills to be used under stress regardless of weapon (at close range of course).

For some time, I've also been researching what one might call "shorter sticks" or what some call "pocket sticks": kubotans, yawara, and koppo, in particular. There's a fair amount of information out there about these SD weapons, and I've read most of it.

Here's one interesting and helpful essay by Don Rearic.

...

Don's site is excellent. He also has a blog you can Google called Survival Lab that I really like. Poke around his site more, his thoughts are worth reading.

For now, I'll just say that, for me, a koppo stick seems most reasonable to start with. (I won't list the reasons here, but am willing to explain later if anyone cares; in fact, it might make the discussion interesting, and perhaps I can learn some things. But that can wait.)

Go ahead and let me know why you think this. BTW, I have a stainless, painted black kubotan (not koppo) that I'll send you for free. It is hefty, probably 3.75 oz or so.

For now, my main question is, which one. The two sub-questions that underpin that decision is, which material is best (with regard to hardness and mass), and what length is optimal?

The material is basically on a continuum with light weight being ideal for comfort and ease of carry, and heavy weight (I think up to 6 or so oz) being better progressively for transferring energy. I don't have the equations to prove it, but look at all the anecdotes about fistloads improving knockout power of punches and so on.

May I suggest the Comtech stinger? It is MUCH more than a legal substitute for brass knuckles. You can learn all kinds of attacks that transfer nicely to knife defense if you want to train the two side by side. It is easy to carry, lighter and more compact than a kubotan/koppo, easier to retain than the kubotan, and easier to index than the koppo. Check out some vids of people practicing with it on youtube; while the jab/cross will be great with it, of course, swiping attacks and many different angles open up when you understand the thing. And it's just ten bucks. I might send you one of those free too (I have 2) if you are intrigued, and plan on carrying it.

Over the last few weeks, I've identified two top candidates:

* Alpha Innovations: 6" length, 5/8" diameter, "light weight polymer" 1.2 oz, one end drilled for a lanyard (yes, I want one). I would probably go with the "dome" (rounded) end; just an intuition. $11 with inexpensive shipping.

* Boker SO4PRO-K: stainless steel (they also make a titanium, but it's not in my budget), 5.25" length, diameter 0.55" (close to 9/16", so smaller than the AI); 5 oz weight, comes with lanyard. Here's a video review in German language (I have no clue what he's saying) with distracting background visuals, but it gives one a sense of the stick. The stainless steel is black; the titanium is silver/gray. In the $20 range plus shipping.

...

Eventually, perhaps I might want to try both, but I'm pinching pennies right now.

I am not judging your financial situation but to paraphrase another forum post elsewhere, durable goods are often misunderstood - I think there is a false sense of economy about them. You are into budgeting...try to factor the years of use you will get and then "100% more expensive" means nothing if it's a total of $20, or even $50.

So, here are my questions.

* How relevant is stainless steel over polymer? My intuition says, stainless steel is harder than the polymer, and thus potentially marginally more effective. But I'd like to hear opinions. (I guess the other factor is, the Boker just looks nicer; very aesthetic lines, etc.)

Get what you like the looks of, and take pride in owning. Again, the $10 is worth it if you like it that much more. I do think the stainless offers an advantage.

* About the weight: 5 oz v 1.2 oz is substantial. My intuition says, up to a point, heavier is better (since force and mass are related, but then there's that acceleration thing ... ; 5 oz is still very manageable. But I'd like to hear opinions.

* I have small hands, so it seems to me that the Boker at 5.25" and smaller diameter is more suitable than the AI at 6". I've held a ruler to examine this. I don't feel I need that much stick sticking out on both sides of my hand. From what I've seen of videos and techniques, it would seem contraindicated: no need for that much leverage, the point is the point (so to speak), and a longer one could give the BG an advantage to disarm (more to grab, more leverage for twisting). But, if others who use Koppo sticks have a good reason for the extra length, I'm listening.

I think up to 1" more protrusion is good. Some techniques could involve bracing one end of your stick against the palm, and striking with the stick held between your thumb and forefinger, providing more reach.

* One minor but potentially relevant detail is the grooves. The AI has multiple grooves in the palm area. The Boker has grooves only at the top end (the hammer strike end). Thoughts?

Neither one is slick. Fairly irrelevant.

Thanks in advance for opinions, especially from those who may have actually used koppo sticks.

Nem

All in all I think I agree with the pen advice, not for legal reasons but for utilitarian reasons. I still think the stinger is a better choice and more usable than a koppo, which I think offers zero advantage in a real world scenario over the kubotan; try indexing a koppo under stress. Yeah, right.

Whatever you get, practice some stress drawing and how to index properly, and integrate it into your system.

 

[AStone]

Conwict, thanks for your thorough set of suggestions. I'll read carefully and consider them.

For now, just this.

After looking at the linked video in your sig I don't really think that the Irish style will lend itself to koppo/kubotan/short stick style.

Sorry I didn't make this more clear.

The Irish stick fighting video is relevant to my 39" knob stick. It has nothing to do with my interest in a koppo or kubotan. I just put it there to get the point across that I like sticks. The koppo or kubotan is a very short stick.

Hso, your suggestions from last night are good ones. The problem for me that I need to evaluate is, am I willing to do without that finger strap and the lanyard? Probably, but lemme think.

Arf, nice pen. A bit out of my budget for now, but nice to know it's there for the future.

I guess that's what John means by "sturdy pen". (Examples are good.)

 

[JShirley]

I'm a big fan of things that can be carried everywhere with few or no restrictions.

Koppos are thinner than yarawa sticks.

The loops on some koppos are a mixed blessing.

Probably the best compromise you could find, would be a solid, sturdy koppo, and a pen of similar size. Then, you can practice strikes to your heart's content with the koppo, and take the legal (and useful) pen with you daily.

 

[AStone]

Good suggestions, John.

I'd love to hear more about the mixed blessing of the loop on the koppo.
I'm assuming you mean the loop in the middle. I actually like the idea of a loop at the end.

Conwict, I'm not ignoring your question about the same, but just thinking about it some.

 

[JShirley]

Al,

I'm really reluctant to entangle myself with any defensive tool, especially one that may be used to strike. Sure, it's handy to not have to hold onto something all the time, but if it's basically tied to me, the koppo can be used against me. I don't like that. If it's not wrapped around me, I can let go at any point.

I have been trying to cultivate a good source for a sturdy pen, made to my specifications, that could work well as an expedient striking tool, for a few years. If that happens, I'll let the forum know, as soon as I am certain it works.

J

 

[hso]

Like John, I eventually discarded the kopo as a defensive tool partly because I had a clever training partner use the loop against me putting me at an enormous disadvantage (locked up with my fingers bound by the loop). I decided right them that the advantage of being able to retain a kubaton with an open hand was badly outweighed by the problems of getting entangled with the thing.

It is a trivial thing to find something laying around to turn a pen into a kopo. With a daughter in the house, elastic hair ties are scattered all over the place. I simply looked around for a few seconds snared the nearest and improvised a kopo with my Timberline pen. The advantage over a standard corded kopo is that the elastic hair tie will slip and give instead of trapping me and I always have a pen on my person anyway.

 

[AStone]

Ok. I hear you about being tied to the koppo. Reasonable point.

The elastic hair tie makes sense. Need to think on this some more.

That Timberline is fairly wicked looking.

But I think I favor something with a loop/lanyard on the end (even if not on the shaft) because I won't carry this in a shirt pocket (like a pen) but in my right pant pocket. I like the idea of having a lanyard hanging out to get my thumb into quickly to pull it out of said pocket.

I dunno. I'll think about it.

 

[JShirley]

I would be happier with a short lanyard used to extract from the pocket than a loop a digit slid into.

 

[AStone]

Good point.

 

[hso]

Just clip it in place like a knife.

Loops are just leashes you can't get out of. If I saw one around your thumb I'd twist it up and use it to lock and break the thumb and then use the stick as a pull handle to drag/throw. You don't even need to be dealing with someone that is trained for joint manipulation to end up in a bad spot if your opponent just ends up with the stick in his grip and the loop around your thumb. Do not tie yourself to anything just to secure it to yourself against dropping since it can also be used to control/break you. It is just a tool to be discarded the moment it becomes inconvenient or a disadvantage and certainly long before it can be turned against you. Let he other guy be preoccupied with the "thing" thinking he's going to take your weapon.

I didn't put a lanyard loop on my Sebenza, but I do have a lanyard that ends in a simple "acorn" knot that allows me to scoop it between the fingers. Nothing to get hung up on.

 

[AStone]

... a lanyard that ends in a simple "acorn" knot
that allows me to scoop it between the fingers.

That's the ticket.

 

[conw]

With my stinger and the kubotan I currently have lying around, I put a split ring and a little clip to the split ring that looks like a slender duckbill profile, almost like the letter d turned 90 degrees right. It is just a simple tension clip. It lets me clip the object to a belt loop, belt, or pocket, and grab it easily.

 

[AStone]

Now we're getting somewhere ...