Is 230gr 45ACP FMJ sufficient for self-defense?

[Steve H]

45 cal. 230 gr. FMJ seemed to work pretty well in World War II

 

[Confederate]

The problem with this sort of debate is that if you have one person who's had a bad experience or a good experience with any given round, and they disregard almost everything else that's been done and base their judgment on that experience.

One friend, who during World War II failed to stop an attacker in the Philippines, swore he would never own, carry or rely on a .45 ACP ever again, just because he was frightened out of his mind and nearly killed by a charging Moro. He shot the guy in the chest and then hit him over the head and, as my friend exclaimed, "he still lived!" (meaning he recovered from the wound).

R.K. Campbell noted: "A success is counted when the person shot stops his violent action or runs no more than ten feet after being shot. That is fine as far as it goes, but quite a number of shooting incidents involve more than one hit, especially in the minor calibers. One shot failures will be rare. If one shot fails, why would we not fire another? Trained shooters often make double taps on the target. The type of methodology used in many studies can accomplish only one thing, and that is to make smaller calibers look better. By excluding multiple hit failures then we have eliminated a great number of incidents. On the other hand, large caliber handguns will more often solve the fight with a single round...."

There are exceptions, as he noted. Perhaps the most devastating handgun round, period, is the vicious .357 125gr JHP, the effects of which Campbell witnessed first hand and called "gruesome." As for heavy .45 ACP bullet weights v. lighter weights, he said:

I once fired a single .45 caliber hardball round on the move, quickly, and the effect on the target, struck in the ribs, was immediate. All motion ceased — and he fully recovered within a few weeks. On another occasion I suffered a failure to stop with a much vaunted .45 ACP 200-grain JHP very much in the vogue in the early 1980s, the darling of gunwriters. It penetrated two inches and expanded to a full one inch. Nice but ineffective. The second round produced compliance. ​

Although the 200-gr JHP has a better record for one-shot stops than the 230gr FMJ, in the last instance the 200gr JHP failed to perform according to the statistics, which isn't amazing in the least. However, it would be a mistake IMO to ditch the 200gr for the 230gr as a result of this or similar experiences, and Campbell did not say he was going to do so. His point was simply that sometimes statistics lie. If a man stops one maniac with one shot from a .25 automatic and yet has to shoot another maniac three times with .45 before he goes down, it would be a mistake for him to get rid of his .45 and stock up on .25s.

Always beware of the person who says the bigger and slower, the better, or the smaller and faster the better, because there's always a point of diminishing return, as well as many other factors.

 

[mljdeckard]

No pistol round is sufficient for self-defense. They are a compromise of controllability and concealability.

Having said that, I would live with it if I had to. I carry HSTs, and I tell everyone that they should carry good JHP defensive ammo, but I really think that it is in the spirit of taking defense seriously enough to give yourself every possible advantage. I think in the vast majority of defensive shootings, whether you used FMJ or JHP in a .45 won't make much difference. JHP didn't completely transform the cartridge, as it did the 9mm. (FMJ 9mm on the other hand, is a terrible defensive load.)

But if I were in a defensive shooting, and I grabbed a magazine and for some reason it was loaded with FMJ, I wouldn't hesitate for a second thinking; "Oh NO!! I've gotten myself into a situation without magical JHP ammo! I might as well give up!!" JHP ammo is designed to give inferior defensive rounds a little bit of an edge, not change the world.

More soldiers' lives have been saved by 230 gr hardball from 1911 pistols than any other pistol/cartridge combination.

 

[cleetus03]

For GOD SAKES is this a serious ? lol. Not counting the dreaded "over penetration" argument, yes without a doubt .45 acp ball is more than sufficient for self-defense.

In the end myself & all of THR have come to realize that the main ? to ask is what your definition of "sufficient" exactly is. And this has become a definition of opinion resulting in seeking the biggest, fastest bullet while having the lowest ability to over penetrate the target in ?. So in essence, were all in search for that Holy Grail of "Sufficient" firepower aka the bullet that stops a man 100% of the time all the time!

 

[coltoriginal]

Yes, the U.S. Army did plenty of testing. Unfortunately, only FMJ can be used in either 9mm or .45 ACP. FMJ also isn't normally what one would pick if one could have something better.

...

I have a friend who not only fought in Korea, he wrote a book on the fighting ability of various foreign troops there. In the cold northern areas where the Chinese troops wore heavy clothing, there were many cases where they'd find bodies, pierced with machine gun ammo, but with multiple .45 ACP ammo lodged in the quilt-like coats. It was the machine gun fire that killed them, but it's the .45 bullets that didn't make it through that interested the military.

I've talked to, and read about, a number of soldiers who didn't feel that the .45 ACP ammo lived up to its larger-than-life reputation. And though I don't go so far as to worthless (which a lot of these guys unfortunately concluded), I will say there's a lot of BS that accompanies the .45 ACP folklore.

My friend (above) also told me that the Colt 1911s jammed repeatedly in cold weather. This was no fault of the gun or the ammo—just the fact that it was bitter cold and lubrication, being what it ain't, just wasn't doing the job.

Until recently, I thought all the military guys would have preferred .45 Colt autos, but a friend of mine who just got back from a third tour to Iraq, said that with a choice of firepower over stopping power, that it would be firepower every time. If they used their 9mm Berettas, they wanted full magazines and the ability to throw a lot of lead at the enemy.

Did you read the question? The OP was asking about fmj vs HP in .45. You brought up the age old 45 vs 9 caliber war for what? you brought up quilted Korean's for what?

In the case of your bullet-proof korean's i do not know what you are trying to say here.. fmj (which was used) is known to be a better penetrator than hp anyway so what does this have to do with defense and the fmj vs hp question? (are you under attack by bullet-proof koreans? then get a rifle) Hp wouldnt penetrate if fmj didn't, so it seems you said this solely for the purpose to argue your 9mm is better. So whats really happening here is you feel a necessuty to argue your 9mm is better and speculate it might have been more effective; in a completely unrelated thread. Perhaps buyers remorse?... No one cares about you and your 9, or your reasons for buying it, this is not a caliber war.

It is quite clear this post is directed to say the 9mm is the superior round, but this isn't the thread for that. Search 9mm vs 45 and you will already find these arguments ad nauseum

So not everything's as clear cut as one might think. And as far as the military trials went, just remember that they were comparing FMJs against FMJs. Had they changed the 9mm to JHPs, the results could have been far, far different.

That is a clear cut caliber war statement. But for the hell of it i'll humor you.. Yes if jhp were allowed you might just have the most powerful awesomest side arm in the world.




Back to the original question and as i said previously, ball ammo .45 can stop anything, if it doesn't die right away shoot again. One-shot stops are overrated as a measure of effectiveness anyway, way too many variables.

 

[rcmodel]

Anyway, a GI .45 ACP will penetrate between 19" - 21" of ballistic gel.
Which BTW is a couple three more inches then 9mm FMJ.

I really don't think a quilted coat is going to stop one at pistol fighting range.

They said the same thing about the .30 Carbine, and it's got more penetration then a .45 ACP.

Those North Korean coats must have been quilted with Kevlar!

rc

 

[mljdeckard]

I agree. I think such accounts can be explained by extremely long range, indirect hits, and observations made on a battlefield where the observer didn't really have the time to seriously analyze and understand what it was they were looking at when they saw it.

 

[tkopp]

Sufficient? Against what? Bears? Bison? Water buffalo? The .45 is a big, heavy, powerful round. A .380 seems to do the trick most of the time. 9mm are plenty deadly. Any flavor of .45 should do the trick.

 

[cleetus03]

"Even in its non-expanding full metal jacket (FMJ) version, the .45 ACP cartridge has a reputation for effectiveness against human targets because its large diameter creates a deep and substantial permanent wound channel which lowers blood pressure more rapidly."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP



"The .45 ACP "hardball' load, FMJ, 230 grains, is the only ball ammunition in any caliber that should be considered for self defense. Remington, Federal, and Winchester all manufacture this round. One shot stopping success is 65%. Don't compromise on reliability. If your pistol can accommodate only ball ammunition, then load it only with ball. The Llama, Federal Ordinance, AMT, and Auto-Ordnance M1911A1 copies often jam with anything but FMJ ammunition. As previously suggested, try the Remington JHP, 185 grains. If reliability is a problem, stick with FMJ."
http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm



"The cheapest, most widely available 230-grain full metal jacket .45 hardball will still probably solve your anti-personnel needs. No ball round is ideal for self-defense, because it tends to overpenetrate excessively. A .45 ball round can go through the bad guy, through and through the poor sucker behind him, and lodge in the body of an unseen innocent bystander who is third in the row. Hollow point ammo, designed to open up and stay in the body of the intended target while at the same time dumping all its energy into that designated target, remains the ammo of choice."
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob83.html

 

[rcmodel]

I think such accounts can be explained by extremely long range, indirect hits, and

+1
I also think a lot of people just plain missed!

rc

 

[danweasel]

As far as the "frozen uniform body armor" goes, that myth was destroyed at boxotruth.com. If for some reason you need proof that a thick coat and a little ice could stop a bullet???

Anyways, I trust .45 FMJ in mine. It's been killing folks for a few years running just fine.

 

[Baneblade]

I don't have any trouble believing that fmj 45 was stopped by quilted jackets. A quilted jacket, if thick enough with enough layers, would work the same way my balistic vest does. Some police tests showed that thick leather jackets can stop 45 FMJ. Of course, now I will have to go back through my material and find the referrence for that claim.

 

[seeker_two]

IIRC, the North Korean and Chinese armies of the Korean War would sometimes put pieces of wood or metal inside their coats just before a human wave attack....like primitive body armor.....

That could affect a lot of rounds....esp. .45ACP and .30 Carbine....

 

[DeepSouth]

Anyway, a GI .45 ACP will penetrate between 19" - 21" of ballistic gel.
Which BTW is a couple three more inches then 9mm FMJ.

Not to change the subject, but I have often wondered how ballistic gel compares to flesh, any idea?

Those North Korean coats must have been quilted with Kevlar!

Or 250 yards away.



.

 

[Dan Crocker]

.45 FMJ will do the trick, perhaps even too well. Remember your backstop!

 

[Slamfire]

FMJ works. Shot placement and training count for more than bullet design.

Agree about shot placement.

An interesting number that I have seen is that the momentum of most handgun bullets, ( the example I have seen is a 158 gr 357), is less than the momentum of a baseball going 95 mph.

I think we have all seen batters get hit by baseballs. The reaction varies. Sometimes the guy slumps, sometimes he yells ouch, it if hits the batters helmet, well thank goodness for protective gear.

I guess my point is, the momentum from the bullet, being less than a baseball, is not going to blow someone into the backstop, nor if the bullet does not hit something vital, should you expect much more of a physical reaction than a batter hit with a fastball.

For an instant reaction, you have to hit a mission critical body part. Or you are going to have to wait for the guy to bleed out.

A handgun is something you use, because you don't have a rifle or shotgun around.

In my opinion.

 

[Confederate]

Did you read the question? The OP was asking about fmj vs HP in .45. You brought up the age old 45 vs 9 caliber war for what? you brought up quilted Korean's for what?

Ummm...yes...I read what the OP wrote. Did you not read what I wrote?

Please go back and read my comments in context. I said quite clearly that, yes, either round is more than adequate. And I was not bringing up the 9mm debate to argue caliber, but bullet configuration. In short, I was arguing that given my choice, I'd take the lighter 185gr JHP.

Since I don't want to go into it again, my posts are still there. Read them entirely before jumping...the gun. ; )

.

 

[Confederate]

No pistol round is sufficient for self-defense.

Well, it's certainly sufficiently saved a lot of people! I feel very comfortable relying on one. BTW, what would you suggest for self defense?

 

[RX-178]

Clint Smith says ball ammo's good enough for his .45.

I wouldn't argue.

I personally use 230gr Gold Dots, but I wouldn't /ARGUE/.

 

[inSight-NEO]

Sufficient? Yes. Ideal? No.

I prefer JHP (185g./200+P for my 4" and 230g. for my 5"), but if FMJ is all I can find then FMJ is what I will use.

On occasion, for HD, I will keep my primary mag loaded with JHP and the secondary with 230g. FMJ. Since I cycle ammo, this cuts in half the amount of expensive and hard to find JHP ammo I tend to use for HD.

 

[mljdeckard]

What do I suggest? A shotgun. A medium rifle. A HEAVY rifle. A bazooka. An M-1 tank. A flamethrower. A handgun is what you use to fight your way back to the long gun you never should have put down in the first place. The reason we agonize and hypothesize over what handgun round is better, or what premium hollow point is best, is because THEY ALL SUCK. Ammo companies dump fortunes into research to try to figure out how to make these handgun rounds do more damage than they were designed to. The only reason we carry handguns is that it isn't practical to carry a long gun everywhere. I keep one in my vehicle, I keep.....more than one at home. Even in combat, if you are using your sidearm, it means that several layers of PRIMARY plan have fallen apart, and you desperately need backup. Handguns are not the solution, they are a stop-gap.

 

[inSight-NEO]

The reason we agonize and hypothesize over what handgun round is better, or what premium hollow point is best, is because THEY ALL SUCK.

Can one actually say handgun rounds such as the .45 ACP "sucks?" Not me.

Now, its no 12 ga. 00 buck, but rounds such as .45 ACP or .357 Magnum, for instance, (in the hands of an effective shooter) can be just as deadly. Most effective handgun rounds end up "sucking" because of the person firing the weapon. After all, a kill shot is a kill shot. Heck, even a .22 can become a deadly weapon in the right hands.

The shotgun, for instance, simply tilts the odds in our favor given that its more forgiving in terms of aiming requirements (multiple projectiles/spread). As we all know, handguns are hard to shoot effectively without extensive practice. Double or triple this fact when under extreme stress (as in a violent HD encounter). But, with the necessary practice and control, handguns can be exceptionally effective. Plus, there is something to be said about their mobility.

But, I agree with you in that the shotgun is generally a more effective weapon. However, it is not always the most practical choice, unfortunately.

Now, a tank or bazooka....well, thats a different ballgame. Hmm..now if only I could figure out a way to keep a tank parked in my garage!

 

[nero45acp]

Here's the legendary bullet stopping "Telogreika" that saved countless Chinese & North Korean troops from the .45acp and .30 Carbine cartridges:

nero

 

[loop]

First, .45 ACP hardball is a proven stopper. It has been proven for almost 100 years and is still popular because it works.

The 9mm HP vs. the .45 hardball is a dumb argument. Compare a light .45 HP to a light 9 HP and at least you are using a realistic argument.

Um, we didn't fight the Moros in the Philippines in WWII. We fought the Japanese. The Moros were on our side.

We did fight the Moros in the Spanish American War. Then the U.S. was using .38 revolvers. Due to their poor stopping power against the Moros the Army recalled its single action revolvers in .45. They were effective stoppers and the reason the War Department required all prototypes for the new semi-automatic weapon in the early 1900s were submitted in .45 caliber.

Very few 1911s were actually in combat in Korea. They were issued to high-ranking officers and soldiers who were not expected to face combat, such as artillerymen and MPs. Tales of clothes loaded with .45 ammo are just that - tales.

As for cold, 1911s are just as reliable as any other auto pistol in cold weather. I'd sure trust one a lot more than a plastic pistol in 20-below zero weather (and have).

Hatcher's Notebook does an incredible job of examining the state of military small arms in the early 20th Century.

This post counters the idea that armed forces in Iraq are pleased with their 9mms. It includes a letter from Col. David Hackworth to Congress requesting the return of the .45 and the elimination of the 9mm.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6542

It also includes a copy of Hatcher's ratings of stopping power values. It, too, is a worthwhile and informative read.

It is also worthy of note that the FMJ .45 ACP comes nearest the optimum value for effect of any of the handgun cartridges listed, including the vaunted Magnums.

 

[HexHead]

Very few 1911s were actually in combat in Korea. They were issued to high-ranking officers and soldiers who were not expected to face combat, such as artillerymen and MPs. Tales of clothes loaded with .45 ammo are just that - tales.

Were we not using Thompsons or M3s?