Is 350 Legend *supposed to be* a .355 bullet?

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Guy48065

Guy48065

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Maybe my question is splitting hairs. The instructions that came packed with my Lee 350 Legend die set states that the 350L requires a .355 diameter bullet.
Why then is a .355 bullet sizer a special order item? Lee offers .356 and .357 sizers as standard catalog items.
 
Lead bullets are generally 0.001" larger than jacketed bullets. If a cartridge uses a .355" jacketed bullet, the same lead bullets would be 0.356". Lee does lead bullets, so little need (from their point of view) for a .355" sizer.
 
Guy48065 said:
Maybe my question is splitting hairs. The instructions that came packed with my Lee 350 Legend die set states that the 350L requires a .355 diameter bullet.
Why then is a .355 bullet sizer a special order item? Lee offers .356 and .357 sizers as standard catalog items.
Click to expand...
It's a standard 9mm bullet. 356 is the correct size for lead
 
The 350 Legend has been rife with confusion since its inception. Misleading ballistics on top of funky cartridge and chamber specifications.

Here is the SAAMI drawing.

Note the .357 bullet diameter and .355 groove diameter.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/350-Legend-Public-Introduction-Rev-2020-06-18.pdf

Then in the notes it says that all diameters are +.002 unless otherwise noted.:confused: Mmmkay. What are the specs again.

To further add context, the 45-70 chamber drawing shows a groove diameter of .456 and in the notes says the same thing as 350 Legend. "UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED ALL DIA +.002 (0.05)"

So apparently this confusion is more common than we think. 45-70 almost exclusively uses bullets of .458 nominal diameter (jacketed). So it would seem to me 350 Legend would be the same with .357 dia bullets. .355 bullets, even though they still could be used, really, need not apply at all.
 
Guy48065 said:
I haven't loaded any yet. Supply issues, you know.
I'm considering resizing just to be able to buy bullets a thou or 2 larger, just to increase my options.
Click to expand...

I cast up a sample lot of bullets for my legend yesterday. Before I size them I plan to slug the bore, which is pretty easy to do. Then I will size at 2 or 3 thousandths over what it slugs at. I have a box or two of the expensive Hornady interlock bullets for this cartridge, but before I go there I plan to try some 147 grain 9MM bullets I have on hand. By far, cast is my priority, though.
 
Guy48065 said:
I haven't loaded any yet. Supply issues, you know.
I'm considering resizing just to be able to buy bullets a thou or 2 larger, just to increase my options.
Click to expand...

No need to resize that I can think of, except to fit the chamber if it is tight. Folks use .356 to .358 bullets in 9mm pistols, and anything else with a .355 groove specification.
 
The Legend's specs aren't confusing, nor are they much different than the 357 Mag. Barrel land and groove diameters are the same. The jacketed bullet diameter ranges differ by only .001", the Legend being .354"-.357" and the Magnum being .355"-.358".

Any confusion is a result of reloading component makers providing loading data utilizing different bullet diameters. This has created a need for extra attention to the bullet diameter used in the Legend loading data.

One other difference is that SAAMI does not specify different bullet diameter ranges for lead and jacketed bullets in the Legend.
 
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AK Hunter said:
I have been loading bullets dia's from .355" to .357" & getting good results from most of the loads.
Click to expand...

Would I be correct in guessing that you're using pistol projectiles, then?

I'll admit that this one has confused the heck out of me as well. Being that the loads use pistol powder, I will eventually use the 350L for a very short barreled AR that I have, "very short" being less than 10". The 350L seems like out of the short barrel bunch (9mm, 300 BLK, etc), the conversion is by far the easiest (and cheapest) and loading straight wall casings is always easier than messing with necked rounds.

I was kicking around using something like Zero's 158g JHP projectiles, which are .357". I'm guessing these would work?
 
Typetwelve said:
Would I be correct in guessing that you're using pistol projectiles, then?

I'll admit that this one has confused the heck out of me as well. Being that the loads use pistol powder, I will eventually use the 350L for a very short barreled AR that I have, "very short" being less than 10". The 350L seems like out of the short barrel bunch (9mm, 300 BLK, etc), the conversion is by far the easiest (and cheapest) and loading straight wall casings is always easier than messing with necked rounds.

I was kicking around using something like Zero's 158g JHP projectiles, which are .357". I'm guessing these would work?
Click to expand...
There are many experienced reloaders that say if you load a .357 into Winchester brass (which is known to be thick-walled) you risk exceeding the OAD spec and might visibly bulge the case surrounding the bullet.
A tight chamber can experience pressure problems with such a fat ctg.

This is why I want to err on the minimum side of spec and squeeze such bullets down to .355.
 
The Lee dies will work well with lead bullets. I’ve got .355,.356,.357, .358, and .360” dies.

However, for jacketed you’ll likely need to polish the die and use a suitable lubricant.

Additionally, resizing a jacketed bullet will result in a slipped core as the jacket springs back after the compression and the lead doesn’t. This will destroy any semblance of accuracy.

Last time I looked, the .355” .350L bullets were some of the few MidwayUSA had in stock. The 140gr FMJ were even on sale...
Your rifle chamber and throat will determine if larger bullets are useable.

When (if) everything gets back to normal, and I run across a used Ruger American Ranch Carbine in .350L, I’ll probably take a trip down the .350L “rabbit hole”.
 
There was some confusion and miss-information early in 350 Legend release. I can remember Winchester calling it a 9mm rifle (that many took to mean .355) diameter bullets. I even asked a Winchester representative at the NRA annual meeting what bullet diameter and he stated .355. But Winchesters website says its a .357 diameter bullet. But many of the early ammo that people tore down and measured was loaded with .355 bullets.

350 Legend, 9mm Luger and 357 Magnum all have the same nominal bore and groove diameter per the SAAMI specs:

Bore: .346
Grooves: .355.

Now both 9mm Luger and 357 Magnum have +.004 tolerance on those dimension. The 350 Legend has only a +.002 on the nominal bore and groove diameters. Despite the SAAMI spec very few if any manufactures hold such loose tolerances on bore and groove diameters when making barrels. Most barrel manufacture will hold what ever dimension they call nominal for bore and groove with a +.001 tolerance on those dimensions. Some of the precision rifle makers will hold tolerances even tighter than that. It would be interesting to know what exact nominal dimensions and tolerance Winchester is using for their test barrels.

Bullet diameters are list by SAAMI as:
9mm Luger: .3555
350 Legend: .3570
357 Magnum: .3580 (.3590 for lead)
All have a -.003 tolerance on the bullet diameter.

Minimal bore area in the SAAMI specs 350 Legend is the same as 9 Luger and both are smaller (very slightly) than 357 Mag
350 Legend: .0967 in^2
9mm Luger: .0967 in^2
357 Magnum: .0969in^2

Seems if you intended it to use 9mm or 357 Mag bullets you would have used specs that matched other cartridges that used the same bullet diameter instead of this strange mixed selection of dimensions they choose.

So breaking out the tin-foil hat and securing it tightly. My conspiracy theory is that Winchester originally designed the cartridge as a 9mm (.3555) cartridge and sometime near the cartridge's release realized that .355 diameter bullets might run afoul of some states hunting regulation that required .357 or bigger (like Ohio) and made a late change to make it a .357 diameter cartridge In the end it appears to have not been an issue but that is my theory as cracked as it no doubt is. :oops::p

Oh and to add confusion shortly after 350 Legend came out and in somewhat of a response to the confusion on bullet diameters KAK released the 358 Legend a wildcat base on 350 legend to allow the use of .358 rifle bullets. https://www.kakindustry.com/ar-15-p...18-inch-mid-358-legend-barrel-stainless-steel
 
I think mcb is probably right as to why the kerfluffle on 355 vs 357 in the development of the cartridge. I still see win listing their stuff as 357 while hornady seems to unapologetically call it 355. I am going to try 357 cast first and will likely try 355 jacketed 9MM bullets as well. If those do not work, I will change sizing on the cast and try a dedicated 350L bullet in jacketed.
 
brewer12345 said:
I think mcb is probably right as to why the kerfluffle on 355 vs 357 in the development of the cartridge. I still see win listing their stuff as 357 while hornady seems to unapologetically call it 355. I am going to try 357 cast first and will likely try 355 jacketed 9MM bullets as well. If those do not work, I will change sizing on the cast and try a dedicated 350L bullet in jacketed.
Click to expand...

I haven't looked at Hodgdon's site for 350L load data in some time. I see they list a load for a 147g, .355" Hornady XTP. The only 147g, .355" projectiles that Hornady offers is a 9mm projectile in both XTP and RN (PN #35580 and #35597B). Hodgdon does list a load for a 170g Hornady projectile, which is under the rifle section (PN 3501).
 
Guy48065 said:
Maybe my question is splitting hairs. The instructions that came packed with my Lee 350 Legend die set states that the 350L requires a .355 diameter bullet.
Why then is a .355 bullet sizer a special order item? Lee offers .356 and .357 sizers as standard catalog items.
Click to expand...
It's basically a rimless .357 Remington Maximum. The bullets selections are going to be very similar but with no cannelure. The only bullets you'll have to worry about resizing are cast - you wouldn't want to try squeezing a jacketed bullet through a sizer - and the range depends more on your alloy, lubricant, base style and whether you intend to use a gas-check or allow the base to obturate to seal. I have the .356" and .357" sizers from Lee and use them for .38LC though .357Max, depending on what I am loading. You could probably even buy lead hunting bullets intended for the .35 Remington (.358"/.359"), size them to .357" and they'd work quite well. I've used .35 Rem bullets in .357 Max for very heavy loads in my NEF HandiRifle.
 
I followed the 350L pretty closely when it first came out.

The Specs for the 350L are real close to the Specs for the 357 Magnum when you consider tolerances. Winchester used this to leverage their claim of the 350L being a 0.357" gun to make it legal in the states where this is the minimum.

Unlike the 357 Magnum, the vast majority of the gun barrels measure real close to 0.355" and the the "made for 350L" bullets are being made real close to 0.355". The 0.355" bore really does not create a problem with larger "normal" bullets, but does help make things work good with "made for 350L" bullets that run real close to 0.355". The 0.355" bore does make it less advisable to try larger solid copper bullets.

The biggest issue with using larger bullets, is the neck and not the bore. Between chamber neck ID and brass thickness, most guns would not chamber rounds loaded with 0.357" or 0.358". Some brass was found to have slightly thinner brass, but things tended to be "tighter than desired" even where the thinner brass made a difference.

Winchester did a very poor job of providing good explanations of their bullet and bore diameter choices and the implications. It seems they were more focused on selling guns and ammo to non-reloading hunters than anything else.

The Lee 0.356" push through sizer was found to be effective for pretty much anyone wanting to size down 0.357" or 0.358" jacketed bullets for use in the 350L.

Before the industry wide component shortage hit, the selection and availability of "made for 350L" bullets was actually starting to look pretty good.
 
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