You're right! A forward assist is really useful if you're in the habit of pouring dirt into your action.
Is bolt assist on AR really needed?
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You're right! A forward assist is really useful if you're in the habit of pouring dirt into your action.
A forward assist is useful in a military setting. If you aren't in such a setting, you're very unlikely to need it.
One big problem with civilian shooters with no military experience is that they skip right over the SPO in SPORTS and go right for the forward assist. Obviously, this can cause problems.
Where are you going to use the AR as a civilian?
1. The Range. Not critical here in the least.
2. Hunting. Could be you want one here, if you're in some really harsh conditions. But really, you're not under any time pressure, why not just perform proper maintenance steps if you have a problem?
3. Self defense at home. I'm sure someone carries a carbine or rifle in their trunk because they think it may come in handy for self defense, but most of the time if you're using a long arm for self defense, it's going to be in your home. Not a harsh environment, or you wouldn't live there, would you?
I've seen it pointed out in reviews of the S&W Sport that you can push on the bolt carrier in lieu of the forward assist. If you've put some rounds through it beforehand, it'd suggest wearing gloves.
As for checking the weapon to see if it's loaded? Really? Is that really an issue? I KNOW my defensive weapons are loaded. It'd be kind of missing the point if I had to check the dang things if something came up . . .
Another thing that doesn't come up for civilians is abusing weapons with blanks and blank adapters in training. Gas ring damage was the most common problem I saw as an armorer in the Army.
One big problem with civilian shooters with no military experience is that they skip right over the SPO in SPORTS and go right for the forward assist. Obviously, this can cause problems.
Where are you going to use the AR as a civilian?
1. The Range. Not critical here in the least.
2. Hunting. Could be you want one here, if you're in some really harsh conditions. But really, you're not under any time pressure, why not just perform proper maintenance steps if you have a problem?
3. Self defense at home. I'm sure someone carries a carbine or rifle in their trunk because they think it may come in handy for self defense, but most of the time if you're using a long arm for self defense, it's going to be in your home. Not a harsh environment, or you wouldn't live there, would you?
I've seen it pointed out in reviews of the S&W Sport that you can push on the bolt carrier in lieu of the forward assist. If you've put some rounds through it beforehand, it'd suggest wearing gloves.
As for checking the weapon to see if it's loaded? Really? Is that really an issue? I KNOW my defensive weapons are loaded. It'd be kind of missing the point if I had to check the dang things if something came up . . .
Another thing that doesn't come up for civilians is abusing weapons with blanks and blank adapters in training. Gas ring damage was the most common problem I saw as an armorer in the Army.
DNS
Member
KISS rules in my safe.
My Sport works great without it and none of the hogs have ever complained. Didn't have one when working for Uncle Sam either.
My Sport works great without it and none of the hogs have ever complained. Didn't have one when working for Uncle Sam either.
ID-shooting
Member
You were doing it wrong.
Again yes yes yes it is needed.
It is a part of the AR platform that evolved out of a very serious need (an extreme need in Vietnam) to address certain problems that are part of it's design.
Removing it is a step backwards not forwards. The AR platform despite all of the refinements added to it over time is still prone to malfunctions especially those of the type that need a foward assist to correct.
It is a weapon you best maintain meticulously and much more so than than your standard firearm or you are going to find yourself in a jam (pun intended)
After running a large amount rounds through it you will need that forward assist and having an AR without a dust cover is just plain asking for trouble.
I think AR makers had better find another way to be a cheapskate because this won't fly well with anyone who knows the AR platform.
It is a part of the AR platform that evolved out of a very serious need (an extreme need in Vietnam) to address certain problems that are part of it's design.
Removing it is a step backwards not forwards. The AR platform despite all of the refinements added to it over time is still prone to malfunctions especially those of the type that need a foward assist to correct.
It is a weapon you best maintain meticulously and much more so than than your standard firearm or you are going to find yourself in a jam (pun intended)
After running a large amount rounds through it you will need that forward assist and having an AR without a dust cover is just plain asking for trouble.
I think AR makers had better find another way to be a cheapskate because this won't fly well with anyone who knows the AR platform.
savanahsdad
Member
I wish this was a pole . I've lost count of the yeas and nays, and the OP said AR's and did not say what cal. we could assume 223 as he did say M&P sport, but I see a few AR10's in 308 posted , , but when you just say AR's there is a whole bunch of things to think about , as there are a ton of cal's and set ups out there that don't need FA's or dust covers, or rails or ect ........
if your going to use it for what it was made for, then you may need it, so you should have one , but most of us would get by with out a FA. or a dust cover, another thing one might think about is weight , , no dustcover and no FA will not only cost less but it will weigh less and someone else said it is one more thing to get snag on stuff so get what fits your needs , do you need a bipod ? do you need a flash hider ? a brake? a dust cover ? a FA? do you need a off-set red-dot , ect ect , they all have a use , if I could have got mine without a FA I would have , as I don't need it , and mine don't have a dustcover and I don't need one ,
if your going to use it for what it was made for, then you may need it, so you should have one , but most of us would get by with out a FA. or a dust cover, another thing one might think about is weight , , no dustcover and no FA will not only cost less but it will weigh less and someone else said it is one more thing to get snag on stuff so get what fits your needs , do you need a bipod ? do you need a flash hider ? a brake? a dust cover ? a FA? do you need a off-set red-dot , ect ect , they all have a use , if I could have got mine without a FA I would have , as I don't need it , and mine don't have a dustcover and I don't need one ,
On a military rifle, sometimes. Not so much on a civilian model.
What problems are part of its design that require the forward assist? Which of those problems apply to civilian life?
Name those malfunctions that need a forward assist. I'm assuming you mean "can't clear without the forward assist," when you say "need a forward assist." So, name some.
Bull. ARs don't require any more meticulous maintenance than any other firearm, particularly those in civilian hands.
After running a large amount of rounds through it, you will need to clean it. Because you'll be on a range doing that. If you're running enough rounds through an AR to cause problems due to fouling during an actual fight, you're not a civilian.
Dust cover is irrelevant. You aren't closing after every shot, are you? Are you dragging it through the mud when you're taking it to the range or out of your closet? No. Civilians have no real need for the dust cover, either. Military has very little need for one, but it's handy in some conditions.
I'm pretty familiar with it, having been in the military and been an armorer. (Unit level, mind you, not my primary MOS. Still, trained well above the normal level on maintenance on the weapons in use at the time.)
Being familiar with the AR rifle, lack of a forward assist or dust cover wouldn't prevent me from buying an M&P Sport. (More attractive packages at a slightly higher price point would, particularly those that come with things I'd want to add to the Sport, but that's another discussion.)
ID-shooting
Member
To post #83...
"What problems are part of its design that require the forward assist? Which of those problems apply to civilian life?"
"Name those malfunctions that need a forward assist. I'm assuming you mean "can't clear without the forward assist," when you say "need a forward assist." So, name some."
I can answer that...25 years of m16/AR use, can't ever remember using a FA outside of function checking. Bought a new AR this year. during the break-in period it has frequent fail-to-feeds stripping the first round. was stopping about half way out the mag. One tap on the FA let the rifle finish the cycle and continue firing. Didn't have to recharge the rifle, didn't have to unmount the rifle from a firing position, didn't have to drop the mag, didn't really even slow me down. Now that there are a few rounds though it, it doesn't hang anymore. but nice to know if it does, the FA is there.
That experience alone made me realize why it is there and why I would never have an AR that didn't have it.
"What problems are part of its design that require the forward assist? Which of those problems apply to civilian life?"
"Name those malfunctions that need a forward assist. I'm assuming you mean "can't clear without the forward assist," when you say "need a forward assist." So, name some."
I can answer that...25 years of m16/AR use, can't ever remember using a FA outside of function checking. Bought a new AR this year. during the break-in period it has frequent fail-to-feeds stripping the first round. was stopping about half way out the mag. One tap on the FA let the rifle finish the cycle and continue firing. Didn't have to recharge the rifle, didn't have to unmount the rifle from a firing position, didn't have to drop the mag, didn't really even slow me down. Now that there are a few rounds though it, it doesn't hang anymore. but nice to know if it does, the FA is there.
That experience alone made me realize why it is there and why I would never have an AR that didn't have it.
I have ARs with and without forward assists. I also have one AR with a side charging handle attached to the bolt carrier.
Just like on a Garand's op rod handle, it is handy to be able to tap on something to make sure the bolt is properly in battery. The recess in the bolt carrier can do that but I do not find that as convenient or as easy as the forward assist.
But, I rarely have ever needed a forward assist so in most cases, I could do without. For a home defense rifle, i'd prefer to have a forward assist.
Just like on a Garand's op rod handle, it is handy to be able to tap on something to make sure the bolt is properly in battery. The recess in the bolt carrier can do that but I do not find that as convenient or as easy as the forward assist.
But, I rarely have ever needed a forward assist so in most cases, I could do without. For a home defense rifle, i'd prefer to have a forward assist.
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OP
OP
BSA1
member
WOW! 85 posts on this topic. The factual replies have been very informative and helpful to me.
grter; Clearly the majority of the posters here do not share your opinion about the AR. It may be your needs may be best met with the AK design. (Not that there is anything wrong with that. Lots of AK's have been sold in this country).
grter; Clearly the majority of the posters here do not share your opinion about the AR. It may be your needs may be best met with the AK design. (Not that there is anything wrong with that. Lots of AK's have been sold in this country).
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So, basically useful, but not really a vital feature for civilian use. Nothing wrong with that, but convenient isn't the same as necessary.
45_auto
Member
If it's a valuable feature, why are all those AR uppers WITHOUT a FA selling so well?
OP
OP
BSA1
member
Actually contrary to your dogmatic attitude oldguy870 the majority of the posters do not feel the FA is needed.
And I would greatly appreciate it if you would not try to close the discussion on a topic I started.
And I would greatly appreciate it if you would not try to close the discussion on a topic I started.
Destructo6
Member
Because it looks cool.
Never underestimate the CDI (chicks dig it) factor when it comes to sales and marketing.
I don't feel that the FA is useful, I know it is, so I am reluctant to purchase an AR without the feature.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
This makes sense. That said, the method I use to ensure that a round has been chambered is a bit different. Before inserting the magazine for the first time, I look at the magazine to make note of which side the first round is on.
I then insert the magazine and chamber that first round.
Then quickly remove the magazine and note whether the top round is on the opposite side of the magazine. If it is, I know there's a round in the chamber.
Some of the answers indicate a FA is "needed" because the member wants to use poor handling and "ride" the bolt shut- which should never be done with autoloading firearms. Just like the slide on your 1911, Glock, or M9 should be fully retracted and then released, the charging handle should be drawn fully back and then released.
It's just silly to state that anyone "needs" to load their firearm incorrectly.
John
It's just silly to state that anyone "needs" to load their firearm incorrectly.
John
I'm not that tacti-cool. I just keep my guns loaded. If there's already a round in the chamber, there's no need to load silently. If things progress through an entire magazine of ammo, then I'd think the time for silence has already passed, so silent reloads don't seem all that useful.
Your average defensive use isn't going to require a whole lot of stealth for a civilian. I do question the wisdom of riding the charging handle for any reason, though. FA may not be enough if you you ride the handle.
X-Rap
Member
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I can't think of many procedures that from time to time aren't modified or improved from time to time. Getting caught up in rigid doctrine "just because that's the way it's done" isn't always the best tactic at the moment.
You don't know unless you try but if it does then go for it. If I am out in the field most of my loads are done as quietly as possible, I don't slam my doors either.
You don't know unless you try but if it does then go for it. If I am out in the field most of my loads are done as quietly as possible, I don't slam my doors either.
justin's method of press check is better because you can do it in the dark.
if you're just putzing around with an AR15, it doesn't really matter. get one with or without.
if you're going to TRAIN to use the ar15, then you will likely follow one of the standard sets of admin reloads, immediate action, remedial action, etc procedures that are taught by various trainers. (trainers each have their own versions of these) I haven't trained with everybody, but I'm not aware of any of the popular trainers that teach use of forward assist.
the point is, unless you train to use it, when you need it, you're not going to use it. so again, it doesn't really matter
if you're just putzing around with an AR15, it doesn't really matter. get one with or without.
if you're going to TRAIN to use the ar15, then you will likely follow one of the standard sets of admin reloads, immediate action, remedial action, etc procedures that are taught by various trainers. (trainers each have their own versions of these) I haven't trained with everybody, but I'm not aware of any of the popular trainers that teach use of forward assist.
the point is, unless you train to use it, when you need it, you're not going to use it. so again, it doesn't really matter
Maybe a quieter action type is in order then.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Bingo. For a gun that commonly switches back and forth between range/competition and loaded HD standby, the ability to do a press check without getting your hands grimy is a convenience.
So you never, ever, do a press check on a pistol you pull out of the safe to verify there's a round in the chamber?
My AR serves in both the HD role and as a casual competition gun/plinker, so it goes from loaded-in-the-safe to unloaded-for-transport to loaded-in-the-safe a LOT. Loading the chamber directly and closing the bolt via the FA prolongs the life of the SD ammo, and as stated the FA is useful for a press check.
Perhaps the design purpose of the FA was to cram dirty rounds into the chamber, but that is not its *only* purpose, particularly in a civilian context where loaded standby is common.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
I know you aren't replying to me, but I do press check whatever pistol I carry for the day every morning. I'm a double checker. Some of us are and some of us aren't.
If I had my AR set up for home defense, I would press check it every time I touched it. That might not be every day, but it would be something I would do.
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