Is bolt assist on AR really needed?

[BoilerUP]

Answer to the OP's question:

Depending on your intended application, a forward assist may or may not be "really needed".

For a range toy or p-dog gun, I personally wouldn't care and seriously doubt it would be required. Like many, I have had a significant jam after using the FA at the range.

For a fighting rifle or one used for hunting when I might want to commit the faux pas of "riding the charging handle" for noise, I'd prefer to have one. Especially after having a misfire with a Rem 7400 because I slowly closed the bolt after getting in-stand without verifying it was fully in battery, which almost caused me to miss a nice buck.

 

[X-Rap]

Maybe a quieter action type is in order then.

Yea sure I'll break out a bolt gun next time just so you can be sure to know I'm doing it "right"

 

[herrwalther]

I have only used the forward assist on several occassions. 1) When some knuckle head put their rifle back together without putting in the buffer and spring so the bolt carrier gets wedged in the buttstock. The forward assist helps in correcting that assuming you can get the the bolt carrier far enough forward ie cleaning rod. 2) doing a silent press check of the chamber. Pulling back on the charging handle so the bolt backs halfway out, check for a round, ride the handle forward. Riding the handle forward does not always put the rifle back into proper battery, tap the assist and it is solved. Other than these times I have never needed the forward assist.

Tapping the forward assist is part of the military's immediate action for a weapon malfunction, but as long as your rifle is (moderately clean) and in decent working order, the forward assist is not needed in most courses of fire. Minus the circumstances I noted above.

 

[Hangingrock]

Did not the addition of the FA in part because of the difficulties encountered with the rifles in prolonged firing with the ammunition of the time period. Was there not congressional hearings on the subject and were not the Hill Fights of 1967 that involved the Marines which incurred significant problem with the rifle a major issue?

 

[cfullgraf]

An observation on forward assists

Folks can see my opinion on forward assists in AR-15 in post #15.

But here is an observation that I have made.

There are numerous semi-auto rifles with a fixed handle attached to the operating system. Rifles such a the Garand, M1 carbine, AK, SKS, and numerous other military and civilian rilles. I have seen no complaints that tapping on the handle to close the bolts on these rifles jams the gun. Although, i am sure there are situations that it could happen. Folks just seem to not get into those situations, or don't complain about them.

On the other hand, folks seem to think they need to pound or hammer on the AR-15s's forward assist when a round fails to completely chamber. A misshapened or dirty round then jams.

Could this fall into the same myth category that said the M-16 never needed cleaning?

 

[taliv]

Tapping the forward assist is part of the military's immediate action for a weapon malfunction,

the only tapping i'm aware of in immediate action drills (e.g. "tap rack bang") is tapping the magazine to ensure it is seated, not tapping the slide or FA.

most units have different procedures so saying "the military" is a bit broad. what unit specifically taps the FA?

 

[Scrubber3]

Bought a new AR this year. during the break-in period it has frequent fail-to-feeds stripping the first round. was stopping about half way out the mag. One tap on the FA let the rifle finish the cycle and continue firing. Didn't have to recharge the rifle, didn't have to unmount the rifle from a firing position, didn't have to drop the mag, didn't really even slow me down. Now that there are a few rounds though it, it doesn't hang anymore. but nice to know if it does, the FA is there.

That experience alone made me realize why it is there and why I would never have an AR that didn't have it.

What make/model AR did you get?

 

[ID-shooting]

the only tapping i'm aware of in immediate action drills (e.g. "tap rack bang") is tapping the magazine to ensure it is seated, not tapping the slide or FA.

most units have different procedures so saying "the military" is a bit broad. what unit specifically taps the FA?

US Army: At least in my Basic in Ft Jackson, SC in 1987 and continued by me to my troops till I got out in 1997. It was listed in our Common Tasks books.

SPORTS

Slap the mag
Pull the charging handle
Observe ejected round
Release charging handle
TAP THE FORWARD ASSIST
Squeeze the trigger

 

[labhound]

To the OP, I did buy an M&P15 Sport a week before Sandy Hook. It's my first and only AR. It fit the price range I wanted to stay in. Excellent rifle, 100% reliable so far. I bought it for a range gun and if needed to shoot at varmints out to about 150 yards, don't shoot when it's raining, don't drag my guns through the dirt and muck, and clean them regularly so the lack of a forward assist and dust cover wasn't an issue to me.

 

[VA27]

No.

 

[Averageman]

I would be more concerned about the lack of a dust cover than a forward assist.
I have used the forward assist after a press check, during immeadiate action drills, but I have also seen that same forward assist in the hands of a few folks turn a bad situation in to worse.
If it wont go don't force it, eject the round and observe what is happening with your rifle. All action beyond that is situational to what your weapon is doing.

 

[herrwalther]

the only tapping i'm aware of in immediate action drills (e.g. "tap rack bang") is tapping the magazine to ensure it is seated, not tapping the slide or FA.

most units have different procedures so saying "the military" is a bit broad. what unit specifically taps the FA?

Army specifically teaches the SPORTS for malfunction drills
Slap the mag to ensure proper seating.
Pull back on the charging handle
Observe the round being extracted/new round entering chamber
Release charging handle
Tap forward assist
Shoot

That is taught in boot camp from day one of BRM but gets drastically shortened by most units to tap rack bang. And in some just rack and bang.

 

[grter]

Yeah keep it clean that is some very very very very good advice.

Let me be clear I don't care what any of these people may think but if an AR is not babied it quickly turns into one of world's worst crappy jam o matics out there.

My opinion is despite all of it's refinement's it barely qualifies as a suitable battle rifle and that's giving lots of credit.

However it's ease of handling, ergonomics, ability to accesorize, and great accuracy can be equalizers one had better know how to stretch all of these advantages otherwise you are screwed going into battle with that thing.

Despite the above you are going to need every bit a gadgetry that had been concocted over the years to reduce that jamomatics malfuntions.

"You just need to keep it clean" you bet you do cause the tinyest bit of dirt in the action is going to turn that thing into an alumminum plastic club.


You better hope the soldiers you are fighting are poorly trained.

If you pay constant attention (and I do mean constant) and meticulously maintain it as well as keep dirt out (dust cover is not an option it's a lifesaver) it probably is usable. If things get too hot and you wind up firing lots and lots of rounds through it, that dirt bomb carbon spitting direct impingment system is going put you in quick need of multiple sports routines (foward assist included.)

The bolts on those things always wind up a hair from fully closed when they get dirty which I will repeat again doesn't really take much to happen. A light tap on the forward assist pushes into battery.

The forward assist is a device put on this thing because it's so prone to jamms it is needed and not optional.

For those who keep them sitting in their clean homes problems will be minimum but in my opinion I still would not bet on it.

That summerizes my love hate relationship with this thing. I have yet to use any other rifle in this category that feels as natural, points as well, and provides as much accuracy as an M16 A1 but that lack of reliability and sensitivity to minute particles of dirt is something I really worry about.

 

[BoilerUP]

"You just need to keep it clean" you bet you do cause the tinyest bit of dirt in the action is going to turn that thing into an alumminum plastic club.

I know a number of folks that spent a year or more each in OIF/OEF in the Army or Marines infantry and to a man, none of them complained about their M16/M4 being a "jam-o-matic".

 

[grter]

I know a real lot of others that have both from past and present.

I of course know from my personal experience and I do keep firearms clean. At the time of my experience I was even more fanatical about keeping firearms spotless.

It's still a jamomatic

 

[ID-shooting]

What make/model AR did you get?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=720916

 

[grter]

The one issued to me in the military the Colt AR15 felt so good to hold, point, and shoot, but oh keep your fingers crossed because it's not a brand name issue it's a design issue.

I suppose if stored in the comfort of ones dust free home, (not mine because Bloomberg lives around here too,) gun case, car, whatever, it will only jam a fraction of the time when shot as it would if carried and frequently used in the field.

 

[45_auto]

Some of the answers indicate a FA is "needed" because the member wants to use poor handling and "ride" the bolt shut- which should never be done with autoloading firearms. Just like the slide on your 1911, Glock, or M9 should be fully retracted and then released, the charging handle should be drawn fully back and then released.

You would have everyone in your unit eject a round into the dirt after crossing a stream? One of the highly emphasized points on the M16 when I went through basic training MANY moons ago under returning Vietnam vet drill sergeants was the importance of keeping the barrel clear of water. Seems that the small bore doesn't self-drain easily.

From the US Army M16 Operator's manual. Pages 84 and 85 even have pretty little pics to show you how to do it if you can't read:

http://www.independencearmory.com/downloads/AR15_Articles/TM9-1005-319-10.pdf

AFTER FORDlNG
WARNING
Do not fire if water is present in barrel.
1. Remove muzzle cap.
2. Point the muzzle down and shake vigorously.
3. Pull charging handle 2 to 3 inches rearward end allow water to drain.
4. Release charging handle and strike forward assist to seat round and lock bolt.

But I'm absolutely sure everyone on this forum is MUCH smarter than the US military!

 

[ID-shooting]

I certianly is boiling down to two camps, range-only dudes and field-oriented dudes. If your rifle is meant to stay pretty, no need for a FA, your rifle is meant to be lugged around in the weeds, bushes, dirt and muck, need a FA. I am in the latter.

 

[yzguy87]

I use mine when hunting. The first time i went out for coyote I had a dpms lr-308 with a slick side upper. I wished I brought my ap4 bc it had one. Like said on post 18 you can chamber the round quieter with it out in the field.

As for using one in war when your rifle jams, idk about that. Kinda sounds like a bad idea unless its an emergency.

Thanks for the ttag link Ron!

 

[jdh]

grter,

just out of curiosity what was your MOS?

 

[BSA1]

I certianly is boiling down to two camps, range-only dudes and field-oriented dudes. If your rifle is meant to stay pretty, no need for a FA, your rifle is meant to be lugged around in the weeds, bushes, dirt and muck, need a FA. I am in the latter.

Not true.

Just about all long gun actions whether is lever, bolt, semi-auto will fail to feed if the action is cycled too slowly. Try cycling a lever action rifle too slowly and you will get the mother of all jams.

In the case of the AR a possible benefit of the forward assist is to finish chambering the round when the action is cycled too slowly for stealth operation. Even this is not a sure thing as anytime the action is cycled too slowly a jam may occur or the round still may not fully chambered.

As to being lugged around in the weeds, bushes, dirt and muck who carries their gun with the action open? I am puzzled as to how dirt and muck will get into the chamber and on the ammunition when the action is closed.

The quietest action that I can think of when chambering a round is the Rolling Block as only the noise from the gun that occurs is when the hammer is being cocked. And it is jam free.

If the quarry someone is stalking is so close and/or so alert that the sound of the action being cycled will spook it then the best choice would be to approach with a round already chambered, the safety on, finger off the trigger and muzzle pointed in safe direction.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

There are numerous semi-auto rifles with a fixed handle attached to the operating system. Rifles such a the Garand, M1 carbine, AK, SKS, and numerous other military and civilian rilles. I have seen no complaints that tapping on the handle to close the bolts on these rifles jams the gun.

I may be one of the last American soldiers to use an M1 in combat -- I bummed one off the ARVN unit I advised and carried it instead of my issue M2 carbine.

I was also one of the last American soldiers to be trained on the M1 -- while waiting orders for OCS, I cleaned M1s for turn-in to ordnance, and went to pick up the new M14s.

Standard practice with the M1 (and with the M14) was to smack the operating rod handle to be sure the first round was fully chambered.

 

[JShirley]

ID is correct about SPORTS.

herrwalther, the Army doesn't have boot camp. It has basic or ITB OSUT.

45, there aren't many US Army teams that wade through water chest high. I know my team- since I am a team chief- never will.

John

 

[grter]

Very good you had better hope that whatever miricles of today's modern technology used to keep you out of water holds up.

Sorry but successful efforts at making the battlefield as close as possible to neat and tidy is not a good explanation but if you want that thing to keep firing you had better make sure it is kept very very very very very neat and tidy.

Take it for what it is worth but I am warning you this is life saving advice worth heeding.

Reinventing the wheel at the cost of life and limb is not an endeavour worth pursuing.

Just humor what you belive to be myths if it is no extra trouble and entertain the fact that it may have already been learned by past experience.

You never know it may save lives.