Is building this $10 shotgun legal?

[MASTEROFMALICE]

I've seen it where people take two different diameters of iron pipe and build a working 12ga shotgun out of it (I'll not say exactly how it's constructed lest someone here try it and get hurt).

My question is this: If building your own firearm from scratch is legal without ATF approval as long as you don't resell it, then would is be legal to have one of these assuming the "barrel" was more than 18" and overall length was 26"?

On rare occurances we come across stuff like this but they've alway been illegal for one reason or another (owner was a felon, etc.).

Just wondering what you guys think.

 

[trueblue1776]

legal to build couple guns a year, just mark them properly.

Smart to build a shot gun from iron pipe? Time will tell

 

[cyclist]

Google zipgun.
I'm not an attorney nor am I with the BATF (or whatever the flavor of the day is), and I haven't researched the legalities of making a firearm. I think way back when I was in high school metal shop one of the projects we could do was to make a black powder pistol from scratch, I tried to make a vise instead, probably should have tried to make a pooper scooper.

 

[nalioth]

legal to build couple guns a year, just mark them properly.

You can build as many as you like for personal use, there is no law that sets a limit. There is no law saying you have to mark them, if they're for your personal use.

To be on the safe side, I'd mark 'em with a number you can identify if they're lost or stolen, though.

Edited to add: No federal law that limits or requires markings. It is up to you to know your local and state laws.

 

[macFarlaine]

Do yoy have to have your barrels proofed in the US ?

 

[Ron James]

No, the US does not have a national proof house, they have a suffice of lawyers instead.

 

[rcmodel]

NO. Barrels do not have to be proofed in the U.S..
There is no proof law like in most other countries.

Those gas-pipe zip-guns were perhaps perfected during WWII as the Philippine Guerrilla Gun, as made by Richardson Industries.

I believe they continued in business after the war for a short while, and tried to sell a civilian sporting version of the darn thing. Without success!

Personally, I think the whole idea of a gas-pipe shotgun is an accident waiting to happen.


rcmodel

 

[barnetmill]

I read of survival case where downed pilots found a box 12 ga shell in cabin and made a functional shotgun from some pipe. They used the gun for hunting ducks and such.

 

[k_dawg]

It's perfectly legal by federal law, as long as you abide by the various regulations [ such as you mention about barrel legnth etc ]. State laws may vary.

In my case, I manufactured several AK-47's [ semi auto ] from reciever blanks. Just to be safe, I serialized them in my own unique way.

 

[wdlsguy]

Texas Penal Code § 46.01. DEFINITIONS.
In this chapter:
...
(16) "Zip gun" means a device or combination of devices that was not originally a firearm and is adapted to expel a projectile through a smooth-bore or rifled-bore barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance.

Texas Penal Code § 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS.
(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
...
(9) a zip gun.
...
(e) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree unless it is committed under Subsection (a)(5) or (a)(6), in which event, it is a Class A misdemeanor.
...

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/pe.toc.htm

 

[stevemis]

I read of survival case where downed pilots found a box 12 ga shell in cabin and made a functional shotgun from some pipe. They used the gun for hunting ducks and such.

Glad to hear they didn't use it to loosen a lugnut.

 

[lbmii]

Just remember that not all steel pipes are created equal. Some are very weak.

 

[Novus Collectus]

Federally legal.
In my state of MD, legal.
In Vermont, the state with the most liberal gun laws in the nation, most likey illegal.
Ironic!

 

[Zoogster]

Yes, do remember not all steel pipe is of equal strength or alloy, or recieved the same treatment. Commercialy manufactured pipe not made for such purposes may have tiny imperfections that could cause catastrophic failure, and not be of uniform thickness throughout. One would have to figure out the safe pressure limitations of not just the pipe but of the connections as well, for example common threading found on plumbing would by itself be unsuitable to safely and repeatedly deal with the force of an explosion.

That said, many guns in days past were made of "gun metal". Gun metal is a bronze that is less suitable for firearms than what most steel pipes are made from. It worked for hundreds of years.

You just need to learn the safe pressure limitations of any material and then scale back a large amount for routine repeated and safe use.

While there is technicaly no difference in a crude firearm and a more traditional design, the perspectives of people are different. "Zip guns" are outlawed many places, yet making a traditional firearm is legal.
Functionaly there would be little difference from a single shot traditional firearm design, and a "Zip gun" made out of quality parts. The only difference is the discretion of those applying the law. So it really is a cosmetic law. If it looks like a pipe with things attached it can be a zip gun. If it is blued, and well made wood attached then it can be something else

Shotguns operate at fairly low pressures. Many black powder loadings, and firearms chambered in such loadings using modern smokeless powder also operate at low pressures. It really depends on the round one intended to fire.

 

[vis-à-vis]

Very cool. Anyone know the legality in KY?

 

[rcmodel]

I don't know what the pressure limitations on common pipe is.
But galvanized and black iron pipe commonly sold in the plumbing department holds, at most, 200 PSI of water or natural gas pressure at the upper extreme.
I'm sure it's rated much higher then that, but:

A modern shotgun shell produces on the order of 12,000 PSI or more chamber pressure.

You do the math!


rcmodel

 

[ilbob]

(16) "Zip gun" means a device or combination of devices that was not originally a firearm and is adapted to expel a projectile through a smooth-bore or rifled-bore barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance

.
By that definition every firearm is a zip gun.

 

[Novus Collectus]

I don't know what the pressure limitations on common pipe is.
But galvanized and black iron pipe commonly sold in the plumbing department holds, at most, 200 PSI of water or natural gas pressure at the upper extreme.
I'm sure it's rated much higher then that, but:

A modern shotgun shell produces on the order of 12,000 PSI or more chamber pressure.

One thing to consider is that there are two layers of pipe at the chamber and the cartridge also has a brass shell on top of all this.

 

[Zoogster]

I don't know what the pressure limitations on common pipe is.
But galvanized and black iron pipe commonly sold in the plumbing department holds, at most, 200 PSI of water or natural gas pressure at the upper extreme.
I'm sure it's rated much higher then that, but:

A modern shotgun shell produces on the order of 12,000 PSI or more chamber pressure.

You do the math!

Here is a video of someone putting together a gun made of plumbing, with a CO2 cartridge used as the shotgun shell (obviously ammunition is not as easily available.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srjQEJP7hwI
In the end he fires it without a projectile.

Here is his shotgun shell production.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IuVabnKwgc

Here is the same person loading it with BBs and shooting them in some abandoned place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE1jxFRFZd8
And here is buckshot through a steel panel or door.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lc-IPOu-c8

A firearm is really a very simple thing and can be built from any number of things found all around in just about anyone's home or garage.
The same type of thing designed for standard commercial shells would function just as well. In fact I know so because a lot of people make and have made them for scuba diving in the form of a bang stick.

I believe the person in the video is in Germany or something, so no US laws have been broken.

By that definition every firearm is a zip gun.

This is exactly correct, and why it is the discretion of the authorities what is a legal firearm and what is a "zip gun". Much of it will depend on fit and finish. So it is an entirely cosmetic law.

 

[LaEscopeta]

It's perfectly legal by federal law, as long as you abide by the various regulations [ such as you mention about barrel length etc ]. State laws may vary.

+1. Federal law, if it is legal for you own it is legal for you to make. As long as you don't sell it or give it away, which may or may not bring a whole slew of other Fed laws. As I type this I realize I don't know what happens to you home made guns after you die; can you give them to someone in your will? Or do your heirs have to to turn them in, give/sell to someone who can legally own, or destroy (like with an inherited illegal NFA Title II firearms)? Maybe if I get more bored I’ll try to look that up.

Texas Penal Code § 46.01. DEFINITIONS….

Wow. There is actually a firearm that is illegal in Texas? I didn’t know that.

Also, as far a pressures ratings of pipes vs. listed pressures for various cartridges, note these pressures, even through both may be in psi, are measured differently and are not repeat not comparable. In particular chamber pressures of cartridges are very sensitive to how tightly the fit is in the chamber. This means Cletus may build a shotgun out of 200 psi, ¾ inch gas pipe and fire a 12 gage shell with no problem, but if his cousin Bo tries it with a different diameter of the same 200 psi pipe and a 20 gage shell that fits tighter, he may get a the KA-BOOM that blows off half his face.

If there is anything in this thread you do not already understand completely, you should be building bird houses in your basement and not firearms.

 

[Master Blaster]

that was not originally a firearm

That is the relevant part of the statute that defines what a Zip Gun is.

If it wasnt given a serial number and sold as a firearm under federal and state law... ITs a zip gun.

But it appears there is an exception that only makes it a misdemeanor.
I suppose all of the legality of it hinges on wether you comit another crime, or someone gets hurt badly, then the code contains a sentance enhancer. Or if somone just feels unsafe and calls the police its a misdemeanor, sort of like fire works.

But someone who lives in Texas can look up the reference to another chapter of the code and tell us.

 

[trueblue1776]

That is the relevant part of the statute that defines what a Zip Gun is.

If it wasnt given a serial number and sold as a firearm under federal and state law... ITs a zip gun.

I don't agree with your interpretation. If I milled an AR-15 receiver out of billet, nobody in their right mind would call that a zip gun, yet the block of alum was a raw material. Is a steel pipe raw material? I say yes.

What I believe the intent of the "zip-gun" term is this: Any item (not material) that was not meant to perform as a firearm (Car antenna, pen tube, etc.), being modified to fire a modern cartridge through improvised methods (rubber band etc.). Basically something any retard could slap together in the garage in ten minutes to fire a round once or twice.

Think about the intent, it has been established to be legally sound to build a rifle from an 80% receiver, in some guns this is just a flat piece of sheet steel with a stencil drawn on it. A zip gun is somewhere in between a firearm and a small bomb. I guess what we consider to be a firearm differs, but we can all agree a rubber band, car antenna, and .22 round does constitute a zip gun.

 

[Novus Collectus]

If it wasnt given a serial number and sold as a firearm under federal and state law... ITs a zip gun.

That doesn't sound right. It sounds like reading into statute wording that is not there.
If it was true, then cartridge conversion cylinders of cap and ball revolvers is illegal in Texas because they were never sold as firearms under federal and most state laws.

 

[Novus Collectus]

but we can all agree a rubber band, car antenna, and .22 round does constitute a zip gun.

Not me, I disagree. A firearm is a firearm, a "firearm" is a "firearm" and a zip gun has to be specifically defined as a "zip gun" or else the definition is so indeterminate that all firearms that are not "firearms" are zip guns.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

I think it might be legal, but I'm going to be far far away from anyone shooting one of those.