Is building this $10 shotgun legal?

[Dallas239]

The same Penal Code section has the definition of "Firearm" as far as Texas is concerned, and it has nothing to do with whether or not it has a serial number or was sold:

"Firearm" means any device designed, made, or
adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy
generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device
readily convertible to that use. Firearm does not include a firearm
that may have, as an integral part, a folding knife blade or other
characteristics of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that
is:
(A)an antique or curio firearm manufactured
before 1899; or
(B)a replica of an antique or curio firearm
manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica does not use rim
fire or center fire ammunition.

I think if you made such a thing in Texas, your argument would be that before you put the pipes together in a certain configuration, they were just raw materials, so the "device" that you built was originally designed and made as a firearm, and therefore couldn't be a zip gun by definition. And I think that is the right answer. But I'm not a lawyer, and if I were planning to do this, I would definitly get the advice of one.

 

[PTK]

This is what you're talking about, I think.

As far as I understand, if you build one up from parts, it's legal. State laws vary, but if you intended it to be a gun from the get-go, it shouldn't be classified as a zip gun.

 

[Beatnik]

Wow. There is actually a firearm that is illegal in Texas? I didn’t know that.

Yeah, believe it or not, at a cursory glance, it would seem that here, butted right up against total-gun-ban DC, I have more gun freedom than Texans.

I personally wouldn't do this unless I had the right pipe. You can probably double-wall something together which ends up with a 3/8" wall, and it would probably cope with hot, high-brass shells pretty easily, but it would weigh 15 pounds, too.

You could find 4130 seamless pipe if you try hard enough, and you could have it professionally heat treated to be able to withstand the same thing, for much less weight. Or, you could go to WalMart and just pony up the $128.37 for a brand new, working shotgun and probably end up spending less money, and have someone to sue when you blow your face off.

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

It's a very crude gun, of course, only two moving parts. I have seen a lot of things made into guns (pen, screwdriver, etc.) but these were all illegal as they would fall under an AOW definition by being disguised as something else.

The gun from two pieces of pipe may also be an AOW since when looking at it just looks like two pieces of pipe.

I've seen the pipe guns built but they've always been illegal on some level or another, generally from barrel length.

 

[PTK]

For what it's worth, standard 2 3/4" shotgun shells produce very little pressure in comparison to most cartridges.

With proper materials (i.e. not copper pipe, not PVC pipe) a carefully made (takes an hour tops) pipe shotgun works better than anyone here is giving it credit to.

 

[cyclist]

As far as I understand, if you build one up from parts, it's legal. State laws vary, but if you intended it to be a gun from the get-go, it shouldn't be classified as a zip gun.

If someone takes a Cross brand pen with the intent to use that pen's component parts to build a firearm, it is still potentially a zip gun. Logic and Law do not necessarily go hand in hand.

I wonder how many people are in prison or in jail because of something they did based upon something they read on the internet.

/|({[ insert appropriate disclaimers here ]})|\

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I think if you made such a thing in Texas, your argument would be that before you put the pipes together in a certain configuration, they were just raw materials, so the "device" that you built was originally designed and made as a firearm, and therefore couldn't be a zip gun by definition.

It's a zip gun unless the pipes were manufactured with the intent to use them as part of a firearm. Since the pipes were most likely manufactured as plumbing supplies, they are not firearms parts.

If you manufacture an AK-47 out of unserialized plates it is not a zip gun since those plates were manufactured for the specific purpose of being a firearm.

 

[trueblue1776]

Novus, I think a zip gun can't really be defined, as they are widely ranging improvised weapons. It is more practical to describe what it is not.

 

[BacSi67]

Pipe gun

You goin' Charlie on me, son?

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

Hey, Dad. Actually we come across things like this from time to time. I, personally, think as long as the construction is within defined federal and state limits that they're legal to own.

 

[Dallas239]

It's a zip gun unless the pipes were manufactured with the intent to use them as part of a firearm.

Is that an authoritative opinion?

Since the pipes were most likely manufactured as plumbing supplies, they are not firearms parts.

Maybe. But the statute talks about "devices" not "parts". I don't know if a Texas court would consider a pipe to be a device or not. There's probably some case law out there.

If you manufacture an AK-47 out of unserialized plates it is not a zip gun since those plates were manufactured for the specific purpose of being a firearm.

Why does it matter what the plates were manufactured for? And does it matter what they were before they were manufactured into plates? What if you make it out of a billet of aluminum? What if it's just generic unthreaded pipe? There's obviously an issue of how far back you look to determine if the "device" was originally a gun or originally something else.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Is that an authoritative opinion?

Last week it would have been an authoritative opinion. This week it's just the opinion of a guy with some time in the field. Take it however you want.

Maybe. But the statute talks about "devices" not "parts". I don't know if a Texas court would consider a pipe to be a device or not. There's probably some case law out there.

A pipe is a manufactured part. The same way that a reciever is a manufactured part.

Why does it matter what the plates were manufactured for?

The applicable legal definition of firearm accounts for the design intent.

""Firearm" means any device designed, made, or
adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy
generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device
readily convertible to that use."

And does it matter what they were before they were manufactured into plates? What if you make it out of a billet of aluminum?

A billet of aluminum is a raw material, not a designed or manufactured part. A pipe on the other hand is a manufactured part.

So to recap. Making an AK-47 in your own house is not a zip-gun since it has been a firearm since it's inception. It, and it's constituent parts were designed from the begining to be a firearm. Pointing out that at some point in time the constituent parts were ore that was mined from the ground and thus not a firearm doesn't work since ore is not a manufactured or designed part. Only after something is acutally made into a part does it's intended purpose count.

Referance applicaple laws:

""Zip gun" means a device or combination of devices that was not originally a firearm and is adapted to expel a projectile through a smooth-bore or rifled-bore barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance."

""Firearm" means any device designed, made, or
adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy
generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device
readily convertible to that use. "

A gun made from a pipe is illegal since the pipe was not designed to be a firearm (unless you happen to have a foundry and lathe in your house and specifically make pipes for the purpose of being gun barrels.) The finished product qualifies as a firearm because it was, "made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use" but fails to be a legal firearm and qualifies as a zip-gun because it was not originally a firearm.

 

[PTK]

ClickClickD'oh, are you saying that the many pipe guns I've seen (legal as per the 1934NFA, being that all barrels were over 18" and overall lengths were over 26") are actually illegal zip guns?

What about the one I linked earlier? It was just pipe, wood, and a couple screws before being assembled and finished. Is it an illegal zip gun?

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

What about the one I linked earlier?

Although of a very non conventional and crude design, the firearm you linked appears to have been made by a firearms manufacturer with the purpose of being a firearm.

As an aside, just because something is NFA legal doesn't mean it's state legal.

 

[PTK]

Ohhhh, I'm sorry. I thought we were discussing Federal laws on things like this! By state law, yes, I agree. Almost any home-built firearm can be declared a "zip-gun". Easy solution - don't be a criminal, and I would bet my own freedom on a fun gun, legal at Federal level, being left alone if the only problem is it being a possible "zip-gun".

 

[loganoutpost]

Pipe gun would probably be an AOW under Federal law.

Making a shotgun pipe gun may be a "Any other weapon" under federal law and have to be registered with the NFA Branch. This is only if it does not look like a shotgun but looks like a pipe. Any weapon that looks as a firearm is concealed requires registration as an AOW. Now the picture of the gun posted above by PTK would not be under the requirements as it definately a firearm.

To make a AOW you would have to file a form one with the nfa branch and pay the $200 making tax. Gun would have to be marked with name and town and stae of manufacture. Barrel lenght could be under 18" and OAL could be under 26" .
If the the gun was made as the above post all you would have to due is make it and keep it above 18 and 26 inches.

 

[lbmii]

It just has "put your eye out" all over the whole thing.