Is it obligatory to have your CCW permit on your while armed in your jurisdiction?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Snejdarek, Feb 11, 2019.

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  1. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    In my jurisdiction, yes.
     
  2. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    In Kentucky, USA we have to carry our permit with us.
     
  3. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    In Colorado you are required to have your permit on you anytime you're carrying.

    You are not required to inform an officer that you're armed and less you are asked and you are required to provide your permit and a valid ID upon request. So going by that your permit would not be considered a valid ID.

    According to the Colorado statute not having your permit on you creates what they call a "rebuttable presumption" that you don't have a permit.

    It's like being pulled over without an insurance card they issue you a ticket and you go to court and you show the judge a permit that was valid before the day they issued the ticket and the charge is dismissed.
     
  4. K0ZZZ

    K0ZZZ Member

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    In Colorado, the only easily accessible proof is the card in your possession, as there is no online copy. If the police in any jurisdiction need to verify a permit, they need to pick up the phone and call the issuing sheriff's office.
     
  5. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    To touch on Florida a bit more, the license must be carried when the holder is armed; failure to have the license in possession is an "administrative" infraction, subject to a $25 penalty. I am not aware of what techniques are available to law enforcement to determine if an individual not in possession of his CWFL* actually has been issued one. There has to be a database, though it appears to be unattached to any associated with driver's licensing.

    Florida law requires a CWFL-holder to notify a law enforcement officer that he or she is so carrying if he or she is specifically asked. There is no "duty to notify" if one is not so asked.

    Madcap_Magician writes:

    Not exactly, for firearms purposes. When one is carrying a firearm in accordance with Florida's licensing law, they must also carry "valid identification" with it. I did not see what penalty applies for violations of this requirement.

    * Concealed Weapon or Firearm License.
     
  6. shoobe01

    shoobe01 Member

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    Kansas, yes. Exactly like a driver's license.

    But just like that, it can be revoked and the card is just plastic so doesn't get taken away by magic owls if so. So, they will always go check you aren't a bad guy anyway. Driver's licenses are especially notorious for only being needed if you are a real jerkbag. If local, and nice, you can produce it at the PD the next day and they will /generally/ not file another ticket for that. Like how you can get a warning for a bad tail light, but get that torn up if you show up within a few days with proof you fixed it.

    So, the CZ proposal makes total sense. Of course. In this day and age. The US will never learn though. We like paper, and FAX and certified mail.
     
  7. Drail

    Drail Member

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    I am having trouble understanding the logic of being required to show a license required by the State to an Officer in the State that required you to buy it and issued it. My wife had to speak to someone at IRS the other day on the phone and one of the first things they asked her was "What is your SSN?" Why do I need to tell the IRS what my SSN is? Then she told me they asked for her mother's maiden name......
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  8. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    so they will know it is you they are talking to.
     
  9. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    Where I am, the statute in the US state does require the permit to be carried whenever one is carrying a firearm -- however, I have never been asked for it by a law enforcement officer. They always immediately know I have it from their computer records. I believe they know as soon as they run my vehicle license plate and they certainly know as soon as they check my ID. Again, they never request to see it. I think the physical cards are just a vestige of an old way of thinking, but there is a reason for them which I will explain.

    A physical token is an important factor in identification. In computers, we often use two-factor identification, something you have (RSA token or private key on smartcard) and something you know (password or PIN). In law enforcement, officers authenticate someone's ID by something they have (drivers license or passport) and something they know about that person (physical description or photo) and if authentication of ID becomes critical they will use fingerprints or DNA.

    In this US state and in many others, people are not required to have a driver's license or state ID, and there are no requirements for federal ID's. If I am just a pedestrian, not driving and not attempting to fly via commercial airline, I am not required to have an ID on me. But if I am carrying a concealed weapon, the state wants to force me to produce a token to authenticate my ID so they can confirm I am the person permitted to carry. They can't force me to have a driver's license, because I may not qualify for one. In theory, they could force me to have and carry a state ID, but the challenge is CCW permits are issued by County Sheriffs, whereas State ID's are issued by the State. Because of this, there is a two-card system.

    A physical ID card is not obsolete. A physical token is an important part of two-factor authentication. If and only if you present a State ID, driver's license or Passport, then a physical CCW permit becomes redundant. But if you do not present one of those other ID's and there is no statute that requires you to possess one, then the physical CCW permit is not redundant.
     
  10. PapaG

    PapaG Member

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    Why, for heaven's sake, would you not have your permit with you? One less thing to be harassed about. In our state, they'd like to get rid of them anyway so it is only common sense if you're doing something sensitive, like exercising a right, you have proof from the almighty licensing body that you can legally do so. Kudos to those states going the right way and eliminating laws that restrict rights.
     
  11. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    Exercising a right? Like the right to not have papers for the Gestapo?
     
  12. Drail

    Drail Member

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    "so they will know it is you they are talking to" How on Earth does that prove anything over a phone line? If someone has already stolen my ID they will have the same info I have. When a cop pulls you over they run you through their computer - they don't ask YOU if you have any outstanding warrants. Any ID card is pretty much worthless today. Even if it has your photo on it. I have seen fake IDs that college kids have made and they are perfect. I told my wife not to give her SSN to ANYONE on the phone because she doesn't really know who she is talking to. The IRS and Social Security websites clearly state that they will NEVER ask for your SSN over a phone line and if someone does it's most like a scammer. I told to just go to their office and talk to them face to face. Both my mom and the wife's mom tell us they get calls every week from people claiming to be the IRS and threatening them to send them money or they will be arrested and hauled off to jail. And at first they both believed it. One call claimed to be the police in Mexico and said they had her grandson in jail and he would rot there forever if she didn't send them money. She said she could hear him crying in the background. And she fell for it - we stopped her just in time. People are being scammed every day in this country by simply shoving their credit card into a gas pump with a skimmer in it. ID theft is a very serious and common problem today.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  13. Salmoneye

    Salmoneye Member

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    Vermont = No

    Vermont does not require a permit to carry openly or concealed, so there is no permit to carry...
     
  14. Deanimator

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    In Ohio, WHEN CARRYING CONCEALED (or in a vehicle) one must have ones CHL (or recognized equivalent) AND a secondary form of ID.

    When open carrying (and not in a vehicle), no license, and indeed no form of ID is required.
     
  15. Snowdog

    Snowdog Member

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    In North Carolina, you are required to carry your permit whenever you are carrying concealed. For me it's no big deal, it sits behind my drivers license in the wallet.
     
  16. AZAndy

    AZAndy Member

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    In Arizona, yes. We do have "constitutional carry," so you don't have to have a permit-- but if you have a permit, you're expected to have it if you're carrying. Mine's right behind my driver's license in my wallet. So far, it's gotten me out of three traffic citations. Maybe I wouldn't have been cited anyway, since I'm old, cooperative, and non-scary, but I think having it helped.
     
  17. bikemutt

    bikemutt Member

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    My last two traffic "contacts" ended in kind words and no tickets. When I handed them my DL, registration, insurance etc I also showed my CPL/CHL (depending on State), they asked if I'm armed, I say yes, end of story. I don't think a person ever knows for sure if a carry permit is "the" reason for not getting cited. It's not going to ruin my day to be polite, cooperative and forthcoming during a traffic infraction stop, cops have a tough enough job as it is.
     
  18. Styx

    Styx Member

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    To add to the quoted statement, you are not required to have ID or a CHP on you if you're carrying openly.

    I honestly do not see the point point in forcing folks to carry a permit. L.E. will look it up anyway or can see that you have one when they run your record. All that should be required is a government issued I.D.
     
  19. Styx

    Styx Member

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    I've gotten warning a few times throughout the years, and I never bring up or disclose that I'm armed or have a license. The couple of occasions when they asked and I told them I was carrying, I was asked to set out the car, they removed my firearm from me, later ticketed me after running my info, handed my firearm and loose ammo back to me, and told me not to load it until they left... I'm only required to tell if asked by L.E., and thet's the only time I'll tell. I see no other need to disclose that I'm excising my 2A rights during a simple civil tragic stop.
     
  20. bikemutt

    bikemutt Member

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    Well, if we look at outcomes, we have 5 disclosures, 0 tickets on one side, 2 non-disclosures, 2 tickets on the other other side. To each his own, I don't like tickets. I already know the officer is going to learn about my permit one way or the other, I know I'm not going to jail since I'm not a criminal, the only thing relevant at that point is a ticket. It will cost me money to pay the ticket, possibly raise my cost of maintaining insurance, and it will remain on my driving record for a period of time that may or may not be relevant if I find myself in the same predicament again.

    As I said, to each his own.
     
  21. BSA1

    BSA1 member

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    What makes you so sure? I have wondered about this as the number on my Drivers License and C.C.L. are the same. I suspect when my D.L. is ran it will also show I have a C.C.L.

    It is pointless anyway since Concealed and Open Carry in Kansas is legal without a permit.

    I obtained my C.C.L. before permitless law was passed so I could carry. Since the law has changed the only reason I still keep my C.C.L. is so I can carry when Out of State. So where does it say in the Statute that I must keep my C.C.L. when carrying when a companion such as my wife can legally carry without one?

    I am not inclined to go pull my copy of State of Kansas K.A.R.'s and Statutes at the moment but my C.C.L. can not be revoked on a whim. Even if it is I can still conceal or open carry within the State borders.

    (However having a fair share of experience dealing with attorneys that work for the State they regularly ignore Statutes until the State is sued and the case is about to go to trial.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  22. Deanimator

    Deanimator member

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    The way to avoid traffic tickets is to obey the traffic laws, not ritualistic shows of obeisance.
     
  23. GAF

    GAF Member

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    Yes in Wisconsin, but no obligation to inform. No permit required to open carry.
     
  24. bikemutt

    bikemutt Member

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    Not every person who finds themselves pulled over is a traffic scofflaw, some of us just get unlucky from time to time. When that happens we are all free to play whatever role we wish to influence the outcome.
     
  25. Deanimator

    Deanimator member

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    I'm not clear where "luck" plays a role.

    Either you're doing the speed limit and obeying the traffic laws or you're not. I don't see where "luck" enters the picture.
     
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