Does your CCW admit defeat to the antis?

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wbh

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First let me say that if this is a repeat of something discussed here, I do appologize.

Being a new gun owner, I've found myself wondering about the purpose/intent of the concealed carry permit. But first, let me give you a little background. I was raised in a very pro-gun home. My parents (mainly my old man) owned (and still own) everything from shotguns to rifles to handguns to millitary collectables and so on. I was basically raised with a gun in my hand. The importance of the 2nd amendment, as well as the importance of every single right we have, were instilled in me beginning at a very young age. I am and have always been a strong advocate for the rights of the individual. Any individual. Any right.

Having said that, I really don't see how the state mandated requirement of a permit to carry a firearm is not a violation of our God-given, inalienable right to keep and bear arms. A permit is not required to excercise our right to vote. It's not required to prevent the quartering of soldiers in our homes. We don't need a permit to speak our minds. Why then is a permit required to carry concealed? Am I off base here? Is it that we have the RIGHT to own firearms, but the PRIVILEGE to carry them? In my mind, the 2nd amendment is pretty vague in that regard. As we are all aware, the 2nd amendment states "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Nowhere does it mention the location of the arms we are keeping and bearing. It does not say "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, in public, shall not be infringed." Nor does it say "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, only on their private property, shall not be infringed."

We are not required to hold permits or licenses to exercise ANY of our other rights. We are however required to hold permits or licenses to exercise certain privileges afforded to us by big brother. We are required to obtain an Operator Driver License to drive a car. You must be licensed to practice law, medicine, engineering (as it relates to the public, which is basically all engineering) etc.

It seems to me that by applying for a concealed carry permit gives in to the anti's way of thinking....must be permited, regulated, and eventually eliminated. The idea of requiring permits seems to make the transition from right to privilege. Why must we get permission to exercise what we've been told is our natural right?

Does anyone have any insight into this? Am I just way off on this one?
In the mean time, I suppose I'll begin the paper work on my CCW and attempt to change policy by working with the appropriate powers within the system. But we all know how well that tends to work :banghead: :D
 
Not carrying gives in to the antis.
Civil disobedience is reserved only for the most drastic cases.
If the government requires you to have a permit to carry, then get the permit. Don't disobey the law, it makes you look like one of the very lawless individuals that we are combating by carrying.
Is it a moral compromise to register for a permit? Yes. But this country was built on compromise. Compromise gets you two steps ahead of where you were before. Is it the end goal? No. But having the right to carry shows that we're winning.
 
It has somehow been determined that you have a right to own arms, (in most states anyway), but the state has a right to regulate the bearing part. Don't ask me how but that is the way it is for now. I agree it is a violation and some how we need to change this to a Vermont/Alaska type of system. But until then we are stuck with what we have.
 
wbh, don't worry, we have no "concealed carry permits" so you have nothing to fear.:p:D

LTCH (License to Carry Handgun): carry one or many, carry concealed or open, under your coat or on a boat with a goat, or perhaps under your hat and all that. I will not carry while eating green eggs and ham (oatmeal and fruit plate for me).:D
 
Not carrying gives in to the antis.
Wrong. It's my right as an American to choose if I want that kind of responsibility or not.

You give in to the "antis" when you waive a right, not when you waive the choice to exercise a right.
 
I agree with much of what you have said wbh. These days though, having a permit can be the difference between being credible, or just another "maniac" with a gun. The permit tells everybody else, that we are readily accepting the responsibility. Not hiding it.

Registration, IMO would be much worse than permitting.
 
Actually, don't most places require a parade permit or some other similar permit if you want to organize a gathering or protest (excersize your right to free speach)?
 
"the purpose/intent of the concealed carry permit"

I have one. I figure it'll save me some legal bills and consequences if I'm ever found to be carrying a concealed handgun.

All of the philosophical word-wringing is all well and good, but getting caught carrying concealed without a permit is not a good thing as things stand.

I don't think we should be required to have driver's licenses either, but I have one.

John
 
Well, in Va open carry is legal (and in fact if you are going to carry in a bar you currently HAVE to open carry). So getting a Carry Concealed permit is kinda optional.

I see the CCW as a compromise. I don't like the restrictions it places on me, but the anti's don't like that I get to carry. I guess the indicator of a true compromise is that, in the end, when nobody is really happy.
 
SCOTUS ruled in the 1800's that the *FEDERAL* Second Amendment doesn't apply to *states*. Yes, it's goofy and incorrect. They have gone back and applied various rules to it after the passing of the 14th Amendment.

I have the actual info, but the book is at home. I'll find the case info and some associated text (as well as the book citation) later on.
 
clarification

Just to clarify, I do NOT intend to carry without my permit. I do NOT intend to break any standing laws, local, state, or federal. I will apply for and see no reason why I won't receive my permit. I just feel that the whole idea goes against what our rights truely are. I do hope to see this law challenged and reversed, and do all that is appropriate to see that happen.
 
But having the right to carry shows that we're winning.

No, respecting the right to carry shows that we still have a modicum of respect for law and order.

There's at least one constitutional recognition of our right to carry, and in some cases two, depending on your state. If we as a society choose to ignore the law and take away our fundamental rights, it's more of a disaster than simply not being able to carry.

That said, I actually think Indiana's law leans toward the wrong end of the spectrum. Having one permit to carry at all is far worse than having no permit for open carry.

BTW I do have a concealed handgun license. I figure a) it's cheaper than a lawyer, and b) I don't have to know the ins and outs of as many laws this way. I don't like it, so I'm going to keep firing off letters.
 
wbh

Hi, and welcome to THR.

Does your CCW admit defeat to the antis?

I think that what you are getting at is not really admitting defeat. I think the point is that having a permit implies that they have the ability to regulate the 2A in the first place, right?
 
concealed carry permit

From the State of New Mexico Constitution: "No law shall abridge the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes, but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons". It seems that in the early years of this country, the open carry of arms was the norm, while anyone carrying concealed was suspect, and considered attempting something unlawful. That is just a broad look at the basis for the "no concealed carry". Currently, the public in general seems to take offense at an openly carried weapon, so a turn around in attitude is to "allow", i.e. permit, concealed carry. That doesn't deal with the OP question, but rather a reason why the permit idea is acceptable, for now.
sailortoo
 
DogBonz,

And by allowing them to regulate the 2nd amendment, are we rolling over because it's just easier to get the permit and go on with our lives? Seems to be a slippery slope to me.
 
Does your CCW admit defeat to the antis?
If it did, then why do the antis fight against CCW every chance they get?

Clearly they see us getting licenses and carrying guns as a defeat for them.
 
Here in PA you can carry openly without a permit except in Philadelphia...
You can bear arms bare, but you need a permit to bear the arms your bearing if they are not bare.

Any time you apply for a permit you are asking the government's permission.

Why I would need permission to cover the pistol on my hip, I don't know. I suppose maybe only robbers and gamblers concealed the fact that they were armed years ago... hence it is assumed that someone carrying openly is not one of the above people.

Anybody here have a problem with asking the government's permission to get married in your church? It really bothers me that I had to ask for a permit to undergo a religious ceremony. :fire:
 
It's a matter of steps. Remember that for most of the 20th century MOST US STATES including all of the southern states forbade concealed carry of small arms. Many people carried them anyway, and got away with it if their skin was the right color and they had enough green in the back pocket.

The CCW permit revolution overturned a century of these anti-concealed carry laws. As more people carry and get comfortable with the idea, it becomes easier to eliminate the registration requirment completely. Look at the steps Alaska went through. From strict no-ccw laws to restrictive permits to broader permits to no permit required. The whole process took about 20 years.
 
RKBABob,

That does infuriate me as well. Along with the numerous other things we must get permission from the government to do, but as this is a firearms board, I felt it best to not delve into that debate.
 
And by allowing them to regulate the 2nd amendment, are we rolling over because it's just easier to get the permit and go on with our lives? Seems to be a slippery slope to me.

You need to understand that the anti-ccw laws were passed during the time of our great great grandparents and before. It's not something we ever had a choice of "rolling over" on. And since outright repeal is damned unlikely we have to move slowly. The remarkable success of the revolution is a pretty good indication that it's the right direction.
 
I think some of you guys are looking at this in the wrong direction ... you seem to see CHL permits as an infringement on our 2A rights and a slippery slope to more control.

Concealed Carry has been completely illegal for a long time, the CHL permit is a step TOWARD freer exercise of our 2A rights and a slippery slope toward VT/AK style carry (note that AK had to get the CHL permit system BEFORE they migrated to VT style carry).
 
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