I carry an E2e at work. It works. However I was thinking about buying one for my dad, or even better, giving this one to my dad and buying an LED. But last I was looking LEDs still weren't as bright as incandescents, however, I seem to constantly hear about advances in LED technology too. When do you think LED will replace incandescent?
Is LED there yet?
- Thread starter zahc
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LotI
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I just bought a Streamlight TLR-1 LED light and man, this thing is bright. I am very impressed at the brightness and the focus of the beam. The reflector really improves the light. It seems tough as nails too. All aluminum.
Rated at 80 lumens it will blind anyone within 20 feet. It has one bright 3 watt LED. Run time is rated at 2 1/2 hours. I think the technology is here, now.
Rated at 80 lumens it will blind anyone within 20 feet. It has one bright 3 watt LED. Run time is rated at 2 1/2 hours. I think the technology is here, now.
Single-cell LED lights are leaps and leap and leaps and bounds above Single-cell incandescent lights. Two-cell LED lights are getting ready to nail the figurative coffin shut also. This is a recent development with the implementation of CREE X-RE LEDs over Luxeon LEDs. Most of the hotshot LED lights are coming from China now but Surefire is getting in on the CREE Kool-Aid and more U.S. companies are sure to follow.
Example: Your E2e running 2XCR123A cells puts out a nominal ~60 lumens or so for a constantly dimming runtime of about 1 hour.
Now, the newer hotshot Fenix Lights do this:
Model P1D-CE: In high mode on 1XCR123A cell this light puts out ~105 lumens for a flat-regulated runtime of 50 minutes. Check it again. 105 lumens from one cell for almost an hour. Terrific. In Primary mode this light outputs ~60 lumens for almost 3 hours of flat regulation. Identical brightness to your E2e but 3 times the runtime.
Model L1D-CE: Runs on 2AA cells. On Turbo mode this light outputs ~120 lumens for 90 minutes of flat regulation. This light is slightly more svelte than a 2AA minimag but several time brighter.
The problem with most of these lights is that they are all multi-level. There are only a few barn-burners that have one very bright level. My EDC is the Lumapower D-Mini. It is a very bright throw-monster.
Lumapower D-Mini: Runs on 1XCR123A cell. Output is ~105 lumens with a semi-regulated runtime of @1 hour.
Oh, you want to know about 2XCR123A lights?
Lumapower M1 hunter: ~120 lumens for more than 1 hour of flat regulation. Compared to the Surefire G2/6P this light is significantly brighter with better runtime.
Huntlight FT-01XSE: ~145 lumens for 2 hours of flat regulation.
Also, keep in mind that LEDs have been kicking incandescent's butts for almost a whole year now in the output column but have only recently caught up and surpassed incandescent lights in the throw column. Look at the Surefire L2 an L5 these lights are 1-2 years old, very old by LED technology. But their output and runtime is excellent for a 2-cell light but throw is severely lacking leading some to mistakenly believe the lights are "less bright."
Cite:
http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/fenix_p1d.htm
http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/fenix_l1dce-l2dce.htm
http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/surefire_e1e.htm
http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/lumapower_m1.htm
http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/huntlight_ft01xse.htm
Example: Your E2e running 2XCR123A cells puts out a nominal ~60 lumens or so for a constantly dimming runtime of about 1 hour.
Now, the newer hotshot Fenix Lights do this:
Model P1D-CE: In high mode on 1XCR123A cell this light puts out ~105 lumens for a flat-regulated runtime of 50 minutes. Check it again. 105 lumens from one cell for almost an hour. Terrific. In Primary mode this light outputs ~60 lumens for almost 3 hours of flat regulation. Identical brightness to your E2e but 3 times the runtime.
Model L1D-CE: Runs on 2AA cells. On Turbo mode this light outputs ~120 lumens for 90 minutes of flat regulation. This light is slightly more svelte than a 2AA minimag but several time brighter.
The problem with most of these lights is that they are all multi-level. There are only a few barn-burners that have one very bright level. My EDC is the Lumapower D-Mini. It is a very bright throw-monster.
Lumapower D-Mini: Runs on 1XCR123A cell. Output is ~105 lumens with a semi-regulated runtime of @1 hour.
Oh, you want to know about 2XCR123A lights?
Lumapower M1 hunter: ~120 lumens for more than 1 hour of flat regulation. Compared to the Surefire G2/6P this light is significantly brighter with better runtime.
Huntlight FT-01XSE: ~145 lumens for 2 hours of flat regulation.
Also, keep in mind that LEDs have been kicking incandescent's butts for almost a whole year now in the output column but have only recently caught up and surpassed incandescent lights in the throw column. Look at the Surefire L2 an L5 these lights are 1-2 years old, very old by LED technology. But their output and runtime is excellent for a 2-cell light but throw is severely lacking leading some to mistakenly believe the lights are "less bright."
Cite:
http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/fenix_p1d.htm
http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/fenix_l1dce-l2dce.htm
http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/surefire_e1e.htm
http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/lumapower_m1.htm
http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/huntlight_ft01xse.htm
I don't understand this output versus throw thing. I don't understand how a light could have more output, yet less throw, other things such as reflectors and such being equal. How else do you measure output, if it's not 'throw (with a particular lens config)'?
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
We attributed the difference to the quality of light. LED (used to, anyway) produce a more hazy or misty form of light compared to a more solid beam from xenon type lights (comparable power, 2 cr123 batteries). The hazy LED just didn't have the 'throw' of the xenon light to the target (50 yards distant) but at the target, both lights looked very bright to a person looking back at the lights. It isn't proper logic for explanation, just descriptive, but by comparison, it is difficult to shoot mist from a water hose as far as a solid stream.
I have an L2. It's already gone back to SureFire once, and needs to go again.
I have a Fenix L2 modified by Eric Miller for 3 watts. It is extremely bright at close range, and has an extremely wide beam, as well. Doesn't throw as well as a really good incan, but terrific out to 35 meters or so.
J
I have a Fenix L2 modified by Eric Miller for 3 watts. It is extremely bright at close range, and has an extremely wide beam, as well. Doesn't throw as well as a really good incan, but terrific out to 35 meters or so.
J
Sistema1927
Member
My Fenix P1D (Cree) is an amazing light. Tiny, very tiny, and throws a dazzling beam of light. It is definitely an "every day carry" (EDC) light.
I also recently purchased a Nuwai Q-III luxeon single cell light, and even though it is a good light the Fenix Cree is far better. It gives better light for a longer time using the same battery in a smaller package.
I also recently purchased a Nuwai Q-III luxeon single cell light, and even though it is a good light the Fenix Cree is far better. It gives better light for a longer time using the same battery in a smaller package.
Luxeon Star type LED's are there yet. We waited a long time for it, but they most certainly are. I have a Streamlight LED "tactical light" (the usual 2xCR123A sort of arrangement, the model escapes me at the moment) with a 3 watt Luxeon in it and it is every bit as bright if not brighter than my Surefire G2 with the old firebottle light bulb in it. I also have a 3 watt LED conversion for my 4 cell Mag Lite, and it's brighter than the stock bulb was.
White LED's aren't the most efficient of LED's in general. Thus far, blue LED's throw the most sheer photons, but blue light isn't very highly visible to the human eye. A green LED will be more visible, but is less efficient, electrically.
White LED's are blue LED dies with a white phosphor coating overtop, rather like the phosphor in fluorescent lights. The color output of a white LED is very, very white - unlike an incandescent light bulb, which has a significant portion of yellow and red, and becomes redder as your lights batteries die. As a light becomes redder it becomes less and less useful.
Even if your LED light has half dead batteries it's putting out useful white light while your incandescent based light is trickling out mostly red and infrared... Thusly while Luxeon type high wattage (1 and 3 watt) LED's are not only more electrically efficient (converting less voltage into waste heat) they're also more optically efficient.
Stick with 1 or 3 watt Luxeon LED's or their reasonable quality knockoffs. Stay away from those ever-prolific, gimmicky "me too" lights that just have oodles of regular 5 mil LED's (often running at a quarter to a third of a watt each) because they aren't as efficient or effective as a single high wattage LED and by nature can't be focused. While they look impressive up close and personal, they really aren't that useful at all.
Also stay away from the five watt Luxeon LED's, because they have been demonstrated to have very short lifecycles compared to the 1 and 3 watt types and while they offer some performance gain over the 3 watt types it isn't enough to justify having to replace (expensive) toasted LED modules on a regular basis...
White LED's aren't the most efficient of LED's in general. Thus far, blue LED's throw the most sheer photons, but blue light isn't very highly visible to the human eye. A green LED will be more visible, but is less efficient, electrically.
White LED's are blue LED dies with a white phosphor coating overtop, rather like the phosphor in fluorescent lights. The color output of a white LED is very, very white - unlike an incandescent light bulb, which has a significant portion of yellow and red, and becomes redder as your lights batteries die. As a light becomes redder it becomes less and less useful.
Even if your LED light has half dead batteries it's putting out useful white light while your incandescent based light is trickling out mostly red and infrared... Thusly while Luxeon type high wattage (1 and 3 watt) LED's are not only more electrically efficient (converting less voltage into waste heat) they're also more optically efficient.
Stick with 1 or 3 watt Luxeon LED's or their reasonable quality knockoffs. Stay away from those ever-prolific, gimmicky "me too" lights that just have oodles of regular 5 mil LED's (often running at a quarter to a third of a watt each) because they aren't as efficient or effective as a single high wattage LED and by nature can't be focused. While they look impressive up close and personal, they really aren't that useful at all.
Also stay away from the five watt Luxeon LED's, because they have been demonstrated to have very short lifecycles compared to the 1 and 3 watt types and while they offer some performance gain over the 3 watt types it isn't enough to justify having to replace (expensive) toasted LED modules on a regular basis...
Ahhh the good ol LED vs. Incan debate. 
First I'll let you know that I'm an LED guy. I have several LEDs that I can choose to carry from. (these are just some of my Single Cell lights w/MiniMAG for size comparison)
My newest light is the L2D CE, it is Fenix's 2AA light. Just before that was my Amilite Neo T5 SSC. The L2D CE uses a Cree LED while the Amilite uses a Seoul SSC LED. Both are similar in efficiency. The T5 will put out over 100 lumens for over an hour on one CR123. The L2D will put out 120 lumens for about an hour on two regular alkiline AA's. Much longer on NiMh or Lithium. Both are leaps and bounds above my G2 and Scorpion. I would assume that they would crush a E2e in output as well since the G2 and Scorpion outdue the E2e. Not only is the brightness more but the runtime is longer. An added bonus to both my L2D and T5 is that they have a low setting. Longer runtime when I don't need eye scorching brightness.
The HDS is a completely different animal all together. It has more options on it than my car. It will put out 60 lumens. Not for very long (about 20 minutes) but it is a much less effeciant LED (not a bad LED just less effeciant). HDS merged with Novatac and are coming out with Either Cree or Seoul SSC LED based lights in the next couple months.
One big complaint about LEDs is color rendition. I think it is all in what you are used to. I've grown to like the LED's pure white color to the yellowing orange color of incan lights. You really need to try a strong LED for yourself for awhile to see if you like. There is a similar debate between my wife and I over CFL bulbs.
As far as 1 and 2 celled lights, LEDs have the brightness advatage (and retain a decent runtime) Take the Amilite Neo T5, close to the same output of the G2/C2/6P with a P61 LA. The T5 will run for 60+ minutes while the Surefire with P61 LA only runs for 20 minutes.
clipse
First I'll let you know that I'm an LED guy. I have several LEDs that I can choose to carry from. (these are just some of my Single Cell lights w/MiniMAG for size comparison)
My newest light is the L2D CE, it is Fenix's 2AA light. Just before that was my Amilite Neo T5 SSC. The L2D CE uses a Cree LED while the Amilite uses a Seoul SSC LED. Both are similar in efficiency. The T5 will put out over 100 lumens for over an hour on one CR123. The L2D will put out 120 lumens for about an hour on two regular alkiline AA's. Much longer on NiMh or Lithium. Both are leaps and bounds above my G2 and Scorpion. I would assume that they would crush a E2e in output as well since the G2 and Scorpion outdue the E2e. Not only is the brightness more but the runtime is longer. An added bonus to both my L2D and T5 is that they have a low setting. Longer runtime when I don't need eye scorching brightness.
The HDS is a completely different animal all together. It has more options on it than my car.
It will put out 60 lumens. Not for very long (about 20 minutes) but it is a much less effeciant LED (not a bad LED just less effeciant). HDS merged with Novatac and are coming out with Either Cree or Seoul SSC LED based lights in the next couple months. One big complaint about LEDs is color rendition. I think it is all in what you are used to. I've grown to like the LED's pure white color to the yellowing orange color of incan lights. You really need to try a strong LED for yourself for awhile to see if you like. There is a similar debate between my wife and I over CFL bulbs.
As far as 1 and 2 celled lights, LEDs have the brightness advatage (and retain a decent runtime) Take the Amilite Neo T5, close to the same output of the G2/C2/6P with a P61 LA. The T5 will run for 60+ minutes while the Surefire with P61 LA only runs for 20 minutes.
clipse
Color rendition, mentioned above, is a tricky and subjective thing.
White light is, as I'm sure you know, light made up of wavelengths representing the entire visible spectrum. Or most of it, anyway. Incandescent lights get "white" light by heating a bit of wire until it's white hot - moving through infrared, red, and yellow first. And a fair portion of these wavelengths forms the majority of the output spectrum of a typical incandescent light. That's why these lights are "yellowish", and the difference is really striking when you compare the beam of an incandescent light to an LED. As the supply voltage (battery level) being fed to an incandescent drops the temperature of its filament drops, and the light becomes more yellow, then more red, then more infrared (which you can't see).
The extreme ends of the spectrum are the colors that the human eye is the least sensitive to: Red and blue. The eye is most sensitive to green, if you were wondering, near the middle but more towards the top end of the spectrum.
Anyway LED white light is made by shoving blue light and a token amount of near-UV through a fluorescent phosphor. The cast of the light depends on a whole litany of factors: The quality, thickness, and evenness of the phosphor; The type of the phosphor, as it will have an inherent cast; The quality of the blue LED die beneath it; and how much blue light escapes without being converted either by leaking around the phosphor blob or passing through it.
As such, most LED's have a slightly blue tinge that can vary between lights even from the same manufacturer. Variance will be more slight if you're comparing two lights from the same lot of LEDs. It can be even greater if, say, the manufacturer switched lots or LED sources, and if you compare lights of two different manufacturers you might find that one is more overtly blue, or maybe the other is actually more greenish or some other oddity.
But in casual, everyday observation, white LED light is quite startlingly white, especially compared to an incandescent. Here's the rub: An LED's brightness will diminish as its batteries die, but it's color cast will not change, unlike an incandescent light.
It's also possible for abused (overdriven) LED's to turn more blue as they age due to their phosphor getting damaged by overheating. Some flashlights overdrive their LED's by design, and some by accident for just a few moments if your batteries are brand new and delivering slightly more volts than during the bulk of their life cycle... Or if you use the wrong type of battery, in the case of rechargeable CR123's.
The question of what, exactly, comprises "pure" white light is tricky. If you have equal amplitude of every wavelength in the visible spectrum you'll find that it doesn't look very pure white at all, given that the human eye has a peak in sensitivity right in the middle of the green band. A "pure" white light this will in fact look decidedly greenish.
White light is, as I'm sure you know, light made up of wavelengths representing the entire visible spectrum. Or most of it, anyway. Incandescent lights get "white" light by heating a bit of wire until it's white hot - moving through infrared, red, and yellow first. And a fair portion of these wavelengths forms the majority of the output spectrum of a typical incandescent light. That's why these lights are "yellowish", and the difference is really striking when you compare the beam of an incandescent light to an LED. As the supply voltage (battery level) being fed to an incandescent drops the temperature of its filament drops, and the light becomes more yellow, then more red, then more infrared (which you can't see).
The extreme ends of the spectrum are the colors that the human eye is the least sensitive to: Red and blue. The eye is most sensitive to green, if you were wondering, near the middle but more towards the top end of the spectrum.
Anyway LED white light is made by shoving blue light and a token amount of near-UV through a fluorescent phosphor. The cast of the light depends on a whole litany of factors: The quality, thickness, and evenness of the phosphor; The type of the phosphor, as it will have an inherent cast; The quality of the blue LED die beneath it; and how much blue light escapes without being converted either by leaking around the phosphor blob or passing through it.
As such, most LED's have a slightly blue tinge that can vary between lights even from the same manufacturer. Variance will be more slight if you're comparing two lights from the same lot of LEDs. It can be even greater if, say, the manufacturer switched lots or LED sources, and if you compare lights of two different manufacturers you might find that one is more overtly blue, or maybe the other is actually more greenish or some other oddity.
But in casual, everyday observation, white LED light is quite startlingly white, especially compared to an incandescent. Here's the rub: An LED's brightness will diminish as its batteries die, but it's color cast will not change, unlike an incandescent light.
It's also possible for abused (overdriven) LED's to turn more blue as they age due to their phosphor getting damaged by overheating. Some flashlights overdrive their LED's by design, and some by accident for just a few moments if your batteries are brand new and delivering slightly more volts than during the bulk of their life cycle... Or if you use the wrong type of battery, in the case of rechargeable CR123's.
The question of what, exactly, comprises "pure" white light is tricky. If you have equal amplitude of every wavelength in the visible spectrum you'll find that it doesn't look very pure white at all, given that the human eye has a peak in sensitivity right in the middle of the green band. A "pure" white light this will in fact look decidedly greenish.
Door #1:Last I checked 5 watt Luxeon LEDs had an average lifetime of @500 hours.This is shorter than the claimed life of 1 & 3 watt LEDs but in all respect, if you are going through LEDs rated at 500 hours with regularity than you might want to evaluate just what kind of lighting solution you need. It may not seem like a lot of time, and wouldn't be in another lighting application (household bulbs, auto headlights, etc.) but for a hand held flashlight 500 hours is an acceptable figure. Remember, it would run you at least 1000$ in CR123A batteries if you were using a 2 cell light for 500 hours.
Door #2: I have had all manner of LED lights die on me. Do you know what I did? Sent them back to manufacturer for a free replacement. So far I am 4/4 on getting the free fix. Buy from a reputable manufacterer with a good warranty and don't worry about "burning out" you LEDs. *My Pentagonlight L3 is a 5 watt light bored out to run on 18500 Li-Ion cells and serves as my work light. So far I am up to 56 hours over the course of 1.25 years with no problems.
Door #3: Until LumiLEDS comes out with their newest LED after the K2 they have been out classed by CREE. For a good example check output and runtimes for the Fenix P1 (Luxeon III) and Fenix P1D-CE (Cree X-RE) you'll find the Cree has essentially has twice the runtime and twice the output compared to the Luxeon. 1 & 3 watt lights are now old and busted.
10-Ring
Member
I have a SF L2 & even tho it says that it's rated at 100 lumen, it just doesn't seem bright enough for day time use Instead, I use a Streamlight L3. IMO, LED just isn't quite there yet
Instead, I use a Streamlight L3. IMO, LED just isn't quite there yet About two years ago, the best you could get would be the C123 powered Xenon (iirc) incandescent bulbed flashlights, 1 or 2 watts. These days, you can get a 5W over-driven LED which is quite a bit lighter, and not vulnerable to dropping.
ZeSpectre
Member
I wrote this review/comparison over a year ago.
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=104699
Things have only improved. I'm awaiting the arrival of a Fenix L2D-CE with great anticipation.
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=104699
Things have only improved. I'm awaiting the arrival of a Fenix L2D-CE with great anticipation.
Since we have recently been going pretty strongly towards non-white light at our base at night (due to regular rocketing), I have replaced the incan bulb in my Bear Cub with a custom red LED (made by WildRice of CandlePowerForums.com) built for 4.5V. It's being over-driven a little, but probably not enough for it to burn out anytime during my deployment.
John
http://jrshirley.blogspot.com/
John
http://jrshirley.blogspot.com/
Elucidate, then.
Traditional LED lifetimes are given as total operation to half brightness output. If you have your LED rated at 10,000 hours (or what have you) and you dutifully burn through a bazillion batteries and run that silly thing for 416 and two thirds days straight, the LED will still be trucking but will have degraded through galvanic erosion of its doping material to emitting half of the photons it used to.
Things get hairier as you stray from your LED die's maximum voltage, which in and of itself is variable depending on how well the die is cooled.
The harder you overdrive an LED the more heat its die generates and the more electrons have to pass through it. This results in two things: Foremost, the heat discolors and degrades the phosphor (in the case of white LED's) much faster than usual. Secondly, the heat and increased electron population increases the rate of galvanic corrosion happening in that die. The more you overdrive, the shorter your LED's lifespan gets.
The Luxeon V die is not significantly dissimilar to the 3 watt die. The difference between the OEM Luxeon V's and the 3 watt models is beefier cooling and an overdriven-by-design philosophy. Initially the Luxeon V was only offered in the usual smattering of high-voltage LED colors (aqua, blue, green) and the white V's are a relatively recent creation. There's a reason for this: They cook phosphor layers very quickly indeed.
Every lifetime quote I've stumbled across (admittedly, I haven't looked that hard) for the white Luxeon V's lifetime-to-failure at 500 hours - not half-life. 500 hours, toast. Or at the very least, 500 hours turned largely blue/UV and therefore useless as a flashlight.
Not including the marketers who see "LED" and just fib and parrot back the canned "it lasts 100,000 hours!" line, which is a lie for most applications of high wattage LED's (10,000 is more like it).
I like what I'm reading
I used to have a Surefire Aviator that I ended up giving to a friend.
If you were going to recommend an LED light for everyday carry, which one would it be? Or better, among which 3 should I choose?
I used to have a Surefire Aviator that I ended up giving to a friend.
If you were going to recommend an LED light for everyday carry, which one would it be? Or better, among which 3 should I choose?
Derek,
I ordered a small 1W LED tasklight for you today, actually. It'll take a while to get in.
Now that I think about it, I'll have Jordy hand over both of two similar models, so you can check them out, and tell me which to order more of!
John
I ordered a small 1W LED tasklight for you today, actually. It'll take a while to get in.
Now that I think about it, I'll have Jordy hand over both of two similar models, so you can check them out, and tell me which to order more of!
John
Lol thanks. Of course, I'd think you'd have more important things to worry about than what flashlights I have handy.
MadMercS55
Member
I have two LED lights from Inova, one is a T1 1.5 watts and runs on a single 3volt battery. The other is a T-4, 4 watt and runs on 3, 3-volt batteries. The are very bright and their run time is pretty decent with the T1 being 2hrs and the T4 at around 5hrs. Overall quality is also top notch.
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