Is "limp wristing" real or urban legend?

[Ghost Tracker]

Well Hawk, I'll guess we've both sent our share of lead downrange. And a friendly disagreement suits me fine. But you're sure putting out some pretty powerful statistics (99.9%) on your personal experience when an honest 87.80% of the folks at the top of the page believe their experience to be different. Are you this unique about anything else?

Wait a second, that last question was just a shade edgy. Didn't mean for it to sound quite that way...uh,...okay, this is better. Do you now or have you ever owned a 1911-style pistol with a barrel length of less than 4"? Because if the answer is yes, and you let a weak or inexperienced shooter try and run it...I'll have to guess the results fell into that 0.01%.

There's NOTHING wrong with my C&S custom .357 Sig Browning Hi-Power, but if I let my 80 year old Momma shoot it very much, I'll bet she'd limp wrist a FTE in the first two mags. Even if I warned her. (Then she'd kick my butt)

 

[Hawk]

I've had a couple short 1911s - one is my "totally immune from limp wrist" STI VIP.

You might be surprised about the percentage at the top of the page if this was posted (or got moved) to the semi-auto forum. I'm not the only one that'll jump in. The topic has been covered quite extensively.

I'll offer up a couple "real world" examples:

1. Shorty 1911 - constant FTRTBs diagnosed by both the dealer and somebody in NY as "limp wrist". Frame mounted FPB plunger was obviously "chewed" hanging the slide up 1/8" from battery. Remove FPB, all is well.

Either the diagnosis was bogus or the FPB was made of kryptonite - replacing and removing the parts reinstated or cured the problem. Kryptonite seems the less likely. Dealer couldn't make run with the parts installed either but getting him to actually try was like pulling teeth from a tiger.


2. Polymer DAO new production - approximately 20% 3-point jams with several magazines. Diagnosis of "limp wrist" recinded when dealer (or anybody else at the range) gave up trying to make run.


3. Young lady friend said she had a bad case of "limp wrist" per her CHL instructor - had actually bought some wrist-specific gym equipment from said instructor . I look at the piece in question and it's a brand new Tomcat - running dry as a bone. A little lubrication and her wrist magically stiffened right up.

4. High thumb grip on a Glock, IIRC. Lowering one's thumb doesn't stiffen one's wrist, it simply corrects a grip issue that was in no way related to "limp wrist".

I only believe "limp wrist" when the diagnosis is from someone that can make the firearm in question run while someone else has issues. So far, I've only seen that on the internet. The willingness to call "limp wrist" without actually seeing the firearm is far too common and probably wrong more often than one would guess.

 

[Hawk]

But you're sure putting out some pretty powerful statistics (99.9%) on your personal experience when an honest 87.80% of the folks at the top of the page believe their experience to be different. Are you this unique about anything else?

Allow me to clarify:
Not saying 99.9% of all reports.

I'm saying 99.9% of
-- dealers or manufacturers
-- with a vested interest in the firearm sale staying final
-- that have not personally examained or seen the shooter or firearm apart from across the counter or on the phone.

Given that set of caveats, I'm pretty sanguine with a personal surmise of 99.9%

Heck, I'm not even saying that "user induced" isn't right. But throwing everything into "limp wrist" that might include incorrect positioning, magazine issues, ammo, thumb riding or any number of other reasons is intellectually lazy and doesn't serve the customer well.

Ah, I forgot one: high failure rate originally attributed by a couple of range hangers-on as "limp wrist" turned out to be running .40S&W in a .45ACP magazine. Fortunately, neither the dealer, manuafacturer or I believed them - it was pretty obvious the mag was "loose". How many would have guessed "limp wrist" when the far more simple and accurate solution was "wrong magazine"?

 

[Ghost Tracker]

Well, you surely know what's been previously covered better than me! And I know sure as Dixie that "limp wrist" is an over-used, big-umbrella diagnosis for a number of unrelated conditions. But I've also introduced enough new shooters to our sport using my OWN well-maintained, functionally reliable autoloaders (like you, no junk) to cast such a broad net as to say it doesn't exist except 0.01% of the time.

If you hung a centerfire autoloader level, pointing downrange, suspended by two cables attached (front & rear) to the top of the slide...and you fired that pistol with NO rearward support, allowing the recoil to swing the pistol backward (as a pendulum) at the end of the two aforementioned cables, is it your contention that the pistol would cycle normally?

If your answer is yes, I couldn't disagree more (see my first explaination post of this thread). If your answer is no, then at what point of "free movement" does this example go from a theoretical exercise to an extreme example of limp wristing?

By the way, you're effecting some folks. The "I don't know" segment is growing!

 

[Hawk]

And I know sure as Dixie that "limp wrist" is an over-used, big-umbrella diagnosis for a number of unrelated conditions.

We may not be so far apart after all.

By the way, you're effecting some folks. The "I don't know" segment is growing!

If a couple of the semi-auto mods chime in, there's no telling what might happen.

 

[ArmedBear]

BTW, this is a good reason to choose a revolver as a "house gun."

I don't care how much you love your auto; if it really does this, I wouldn't rely on it for self-defense.

But, like I said, this doesn't happen to me with modern autos, at least full-sized, normal weight guns.

 

[Ghost Tracker]

Are NONE of you nay-sayers gonna' answer my very-well-thought-out-and-wonderfully-theoretical question (Post 29)?

Hey ArmedBear, if they NEVER (that's NEVER) do it to me...do I still have to give-up my autoloaders? Ahh, come on. Please!

 

[Hawk]

Are NONE of you nay-sayers gonna' answer my very-well-thought-out-and-wonderfully-theoretical question (Post 29)?

That wouldn't be limp-wrist, that would be no-wrist.
Nevertheless, I'd like to wait on 1911Tuner for the theoretical portion of discussion.

 

[Geronimo45]

Yes. I've done it. I don't know whether it was the wrist or simply the fingers gripping the gun. I'd gotten loose on my grip... 'highly relaxed, two-handed target position' you might say. The gun was a tad dry... but it jammed on the last round two or three times (when the mag wasn't even fully loaded). Well, I decided to grip it tight, hoping I could squeeze the gun into submission. No failures-to-feed after that.
"Limp wrist" might very well be a collection of shooter-induced issues, and not all limited to the wrist itself.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I believe it can happen, but that it is used far too often as an excuse for a malfunctioning gun or for when one is unable to determine the real cause of the malfunctions.

IMO, a handgun overly sensitive to a perfect grip or hold should be rejected. What if you are in a gunfight and have been shot, stabbed, bludgeoned, etc.? Will your grip/hold be perfect then?

 

[Gator]

Very real. It it easier to do (on purpose) with my Glock 19 than with my 1911s.

 

[Trebor]

I think the fact that a loose grip can cause malfunctions in a semi-auto pistol is so well settled that to ask "is it real" is a pretty inane question.

From personal experience, I see it all the time with my new students, using both their guns and my own (well maintained) guns. Some guns are more prone to it then others, but I've seen it in a variety of guns.

 

[possum]

yes it is true it is real. but if proper technique and grip are used than it won't be an issue i prefer the thumbs foward grip and i have never had an issue.

 

[10-Ring]

Yeah, it's real & easily remedied

 

[modifiedbrowning]

Well, I still haven't made up my mind. The only time I had a problem was when I shot Bersa Thunder 9 Ultracompact underhanded with my pinky finger and the slide hit my palm causing the pistol to jam (left a nice gouge in my palm).
I have taken some people out who are new to shooting and haven't seen this problem.

 

[Thernlund]

I am now actively searching through my gun mags for an article I read once. Said something to the effect that way back many competition rules allowed a restart if there was a malfunction. Some competition shooters were good enough to actually cause a limp-wrist malfunction on purpose in order to get a "do-over".


-T.

 

[Thernlund]

Found it.

Guns & Ammo: The Complete Book of the Model 1911. November 2006. "Myths, Lies and Fallacies: Everything you were told about the 1911 is probably wrong." by Patrick Sweeney.

Can't find it online.


-T.

 

[possum]

Patrick Sweeney

oh boy that guy!

 

[hemiram]

Any gun that won't fire 100% regardless of my grip is a gun I won't keep. It's outa here! All my guns but my little Beretta 950 .25 are all steel, so that might have something to do with it.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Well Hokkmike, limpwristing is definitely real. HOWEVER, it may or may not affect semi-auto function depending on the gun, the ammo, and the amount of limpwristing in the process.

No definitive studies? Lots of things don't have definitive studies.
-------------------

Are NONE of you nay-sayers gonna' answer my very-well-thought-out-and-wonderfully-theoretical question (Post 29)?

If you hung a centerfire autoloader level, pointing downrange, suspended by two cables attached (front & rear) to the top of the slide...and you fired that pistol with NO rearward support, allowing the recoil to swing the pistol backward (as a pendulum) at the end of the two aforementioned cables, is it your contention that the pistol would cycle normally?

If your answer is yes, I couldn't disagree more (see my first explaination post of this thread). If your answer is no, then at what point of "free movement" does this example go from a theoretical exercise to an extreme example of limp wristing?

Well gee, it isn't very well thought out, but it is a trick question. Your setup would not test for function based on limp wristing. Why? Because you are interfering with the function of the slide by attaching cables to it. During regular or limp wrist firing, nothing interferes with the movement of the slide. Your setup would. It is a bad setup that would create a different type of problem than the one being checked.

 

[jeepmor]

Sounds like another mythbusters gun episode to me.

 

[Ghost Tracker]

Hey Double Naught, do you not recognise a little friendly sarcasm when you read it? And who's side are you on anyway?! I'm with you, limp-wristing is real. But before you decide my tongue-in-cheek example isn't very well thought-out, let's look at the physics of the scenero.

I'm not an engineer, (oh wait...I AM an engineer, okay - never mind that part) but the rearward motion of the slide in relation to the frame would be minimally effected by attached cables. But if it makes you feel better...we'll flip the pistol upside-down & attach the cables to the light rail & the mag base and repeat the experiment. And I ask the same questions as before - Would the pistol function normally? And, if not, how is this set-up any different than an EXTREME case of limp-wristing?

The folks who believe it can't, won't, doesn't happen seem (to me) to be convinced the Laws of Physics are merely suggestions. For an autoloading pistol to function normally it must recoil against an opposing force (*See Newton's First Law). Ideally, that opposing force is exerted by the hand, wrist & arm strength of the shooter. In the absence of that force, the slide tends to stay in its rearward, recoil motion (taking the frame with it, the recoil spring's coiled force is stronger than the weight of the frame's attempt to stop it). If the frame move backwards with near the same force & speed as the slide moves backwards...the pistol fails to fully cycle. Hence, "limp wristing".

 

[Mad Magyar]

it's a deflection tactic - a simple means of foisting off the responsiblity for providing a functional firearm on a hapless buyer.

Ask Jerry Ahern. His favorite, documented alibi while running Detonics to the ground. Even M. Ayoob, who favors a "white-knuckler" grip is more for accuracy than a cure for a malfuction. Many top pro's do not favor a strong hold, but rather a relaxed, but firm grip.
The scenario for the limp-wrist in autoloaders is way over-blown and does not obviate Newton's 3rd law. The opposing energy is dissipated proportionally which should have no adverse affect on a well-functioning recoil system.

 

[mavracer]

And I ask the same questions as before - Would the pistol function normally? And, if not, how is this set-up any different than an EXTREME case of limp-wristing?

absolutly they are recoiloperated its the force of the recoil that pushes the slide rearward. If the frame is not held stationary (relatively stationary anyway) the gun will most likely malfunction.

I have a good example of this at the house my 10mm delta elite has a 26# spring in it for my nasty loads 180xtp at 1280fps it functions fine with that load,but put my IDPA load 165 rainier TMJHP at 1000fps you better not even think about limpwristing it it'll jam.Stiffarm it it'll function fine or drop back to 20# spring.

 

[GunNut]

Definitely real.