Is Para Right...1911 Cocked and Locked are dangerous???

[SouthpawShootr]

Every manufacturer will tell you cocked and locked is dangerous. It is - carrying any gun loaded and ready to go is an exercise in managed risk. You minmize the risk by taking certain steps like training, proper gear, and safe gun handling. Simple matter of liability. Just so happens Para has a viable alternative for those who can't get past the idea of cocked and locked.

 

[Rogomay]

Practice, practice, practice. As with any weapon you plan to carry for duty or self defense you need to know your limitations and your weapons limitations. All weapons are dangerous ( LDA included ) if not handled properly. If you plan to carry a cocked and locked you need to practice speed draw and target acquisition with an unloaded ( UNLOADED ) pistol to get use to disengaging the thumb safety fast as you line up on your target. You also need to practice engaging the thumb safety while on the target and then reholstering the pistol. Do this practice in front of a mirror for more realism with yourself as the target. After you are very comfortable and confident that you are doing everything right then go to a range and practice with live ammo, one shot at a time and slowly. Yes, Para said this to sell their LDA and I owned two Para's. The 14-45 LDA was alright but I never liked the wide grip. I traded it for the 7-45 LDA which was a jam-O- matic from the get go. Wouldn't even make a good paper weight. Traded it for a Colt new 70 series. I know you didn't ask for a training class, but you did ask .

 

[Gordy Wesen]

imo Tuner got it right:
"The LDA is a marketing ploy that works on the psychological fear of a cocked pistol."
I would say, 'visibly cocked'
That nails it for any Glock simply needs a pull of the trigger.

 

[Lt. G]

I own 3 LDAs,12-45,7-45 and the 6-45 all are great weapons, they are all dead nuts accurate and fun to shoot. This being said, I rarely carry them.

I shoot the Paras very well, but I shoot my Colt CCO better. I grew up with Colt 45s, later on in the Army it was the pistol of choice. As said before, carry an UNLOADED single action 45 in a good holster around the house for a few days, check and see if your movements affect the safeties in any way.

I had to try it to build cofidence in myself and the firearm. I have carried a bunch of different pistols concealed but I keep coming back to the Colt. Just my two cents.

 

[1911Tuner]

At Gunpoint

cratz said:

unforseeable series of events, I personally had to hold someone at gunpoint for an elongated period of time, I would rather be holding a SIG or a DAO S&W or something like that. I'd prefer to have a longer and heavier trigger pull.
_____________________

Howdy cratz,

Without knowing it, you just made a case for one of my points(gripes) about 3-pound triggers on a 1911s that are carried for serious purposes.

At the risk of drawing fire, I'll say it again: "Match-tuned triggers and fighting pistols just don't go together."

Tuner<-----------Ducks and runs for cover.

 

[Majic]

On the other hand, think that through some unforseeable series of events, I personally had to hold someone at gunpoint for an elongated period of time, I would rather be holding a SIG or a DAO S&W or something like that. I'd prefer to have a longer and heavier trigger pull.

Looking at that with a safety veiwpoint, shouldn't the finger be off the trigger then the type of trigger action would make no difference?

 

[shooter1]

No ammount of "Safety" features can idiot proof a gun. I recall not to long ago, a LA officer shooting a suspect she was covering with a DA handgun. Problem was, the suspect was on the ground with about 5 officers on top of him. "Safety" features cannot take the place of training----------PERIOD!
Any gun is as safe or dangerous as the operator.
str1

 

[spacemanspiff]

I usually carry a chambered 45 IWB hammer down, and I practice drawing, cocking, and double tapping in one fell movement. It is quite easy to do it quickly, especially with a skeletonized hammer.

question.... how do you decock? please tell me you have found a way to do so other than pulling the trigger and thumbing the hammer down?

 

[Majic]

Oh no, not the decocking issue again.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

In C&L, you're relying on a series of mechanical devices to ensure that the gun won't fire unintentionally: the holster, thumb safety, grip safety, and trigger; and organic devices: that gray matter or marrow inside the head. For all these to fail just in the right sequence to fire a round is very improbable, if not outright impossible to occur...

In Cocked-and-Locked carry, you're not relying on any more mechanical devices than you would be if you were carrying a Ruger MKII standard automatic (which is normally carried C&L). The M1911 has been carried Cocked and Locked for over 90 years -- and has no worse safety record than any other automatic pistol on the market.

On the other hand, if you're carrying in Condition 2, THEN you're relying on not slipping as you decock the pistol. And if you carry a pistol with a decocker -- well, every time you use it, you're relying on a mechanical contrivance.

 

[Chuck Perry]

unforseeable series of events, I personally had to hold someone at gunpoint for an elongated period of time, I would rather be holding a SIG or a DAO S&W or something like that. I'd prefer to have a longer and heavier trigger pull.

What's that old saw, Never Let Your Muzzle Cover Something You're Not Willing to Destroy? In such a situation, get 'em on their belly on the ground, hands out where you can see them and head turned so they can't see you. Then holster up. Threats under control, you can relax a little. Don't put yourself at a disadvantage like in some Hollyweird movie where you and the perp eyeball one another for an hour waiting for help to arrive. I don't care what the pistol is, you'll get tired of holding that thing out after 10 minutes. And if the need to shoot arises, I'd much rather have that accurate SA first shot than a DA one.

 

[Zeke Menuar]

I made a flunky at a gunstore pull off the slide so I could get a look at the inside of the LDA. That long bar looks just a little wimpy to me.

In addition, Para must be desparate to sell those LDA's if they feel the need to insult the gun that got them to where they are now. Not the best marketing move.

ZM

 

[cowpuncher/pi]

I think Para is wrong. I shot one at one of those "Gun Days" at the Range. Para's LDA trigger pull is long but seems to light. Much like the "Match" trigger Tuner talks about. Under stress it may be a mute point. I would rather carry a Glock. It is just Half Cocked.

 

[Marshall]

Ditto to all the above. I would like to have a Para LDA though, sweet!

 

[Byron Quick]

I personally had to hold someone at gunpoint for an elongated period of time,

Sorry, I'm not a cop. Holding someone at gunpoint is not covered by any self defense laws of which I am aware...not here in Georgia,YMMV. If I have legal justification to point a gun at a person then I have legal justification to fire.

Oh, yeah. What JohnBT said about the shotguns and rifles. There's just something about being able to see that hammer cocked that makes some folk get all sweaty. Me? I sweat over decockers and such. Drop a hammer on a loaded round on a 1911 to put it in Conditon Two? I'll never do it. I drop the magazine and eject the chambered round. Then I check the chamber and then I drop the hammer while pointing the muzzle in a safe direction.

 

[Mute]

Yes. It's dangerous.


















To anyone who would try to hurt me or my loved ones.

 

[zogorion]

Hey Y'all,

I'm a big Sig fan, I carry a P228 and I love the fact that it has the decocking lever on it. I would say anyone trained with any kind of handgun should be just as accurate with a DA trigger as a SA trigger.....at the distances you would encounter when you do have to use your CCW. I'm also a huge 1911 fan, I think everyone secretly is no matter where their brand loyalty resides. What i would love to see would be a high-capacity .45ACP like PARA's 14-45, but with a decocking lever instead of the safety. (cuz we all know that .45ACP packs more whallop than 9mm etc and capacity is no longer an issue in the double stack frame) The reason I like pistols with a decocking lever over a manual safety is 1. For simplicity, not saying that snicking off the safety is very complicated, but when the S truly does HTF, I like knowing i can just unholster, aim, pull the trigger and the gun will go bang. I would rather not be cought fumbling doing the old slap and rack wondering why the gun won't fire and is ejecting unused cartriges. And 2. When I carry my Sig if i have to draw it i can also choose to leave the hammer down with round in the chamber and fire it DA, or i can manually cock the hammer and have that "accurate" SA shot. Just my .02 What do y'all think.

 

[1911Tuner]

Decockers and Safeties

Howdy zogorion, and welcome aboard.

The Sig is a helluva pistol...and if my hand wasn't permanently molded around the
1911's grip shape, my carry gun would be a Sig...but I gotta ask ya one question:

When you decock that thing...do ya let the hammer fall...or do ya control it with your thumb? Not bein' hard to get along with...I gotta ask or bust.

 

[Zach S]

Has anyone seen the ad that I am taking about????

No, but it doesnt surprise me.

Does anyone like the LDA system?

Yes, however I prefer a single-action.

I think the LDA was aimed towards those that thought the 1911 was appealing, however scared of CnLed carry, and LEOs that arent allowed to carry a single-action on duty, yet prefer the 1911 pattern.

 

[Sean Smith]

Reality 101.

It's a GUN. It's NOT safe.

The 1911 in a cocked and locked condition must break two hammer hooks, .150 inch of the sear nose, and the half-cock notch...all at the same time...to fire a round. Additionally, the hammer must force the thumb safety past the spring-loaded plunger and out of engagement...and retain enough momentum to drive the spring-loaded inertial firing pin into the primer with sufficient force to fire it...which it probably won't on the first try unless several things are badly out-of-whack. In fact, I duplicated that very sequence and it took 37 repeated strikes
to fire an empty, primed case.

Statistically speaking, anything can happen...but in this case, the chances are
about as remote as being struck by lightning while crossing the Mojave Desert
at noon on your way to redeem your winning Powerball lottery ticket.

No...The Series 80 Colt and Series 2 Kimber passive firing pin safety systems don't make the gun any more safe in Condition One, unless you're crossing the Mojave Desert at noon to redeem your Powerball ticket...and a dark cloud rolls in from nowhere. Then you'd be advised to clear your pistol.

Those systems only make the gun more drop-safe...which isn't necessary unless the firing pin spring is badly worn and you are in the habit of pulling the gun while climbing an 8-foot ladder that's standing on concrete...and the gun must fall just about exactly straight down onto the muzzle.

The LDA is a marketing ploy that works on the psychological fear of a cocked pistol. It also appeals to certain law enforcement agencies that allow their people to carry anything that they want, but won't allow them to carry in Condition One.
It also indicates that Para Ordnance is assuming that nobody understands how the 1911 really works. The hammer is visible, therefore it gives rise to the "Ticking Bomb" mentality. When the hammer isn't visible...as in the case of a slide-action shotgun...nobody worries because they can't see the hammer. If they could, the reaction would be much the same.


The PO LDA system is a little too busy and fragile for my tastes in a defensive carry gun. Too much "Murphy Opportunity."

Cheers!

The definitive answer.

 

[Bart Noir]

1911Tuner, I don't have a SIG these days but seem to remember that the decocking lever actually controls the hammer as it lowers. Slow on the lever means the hammer comes down slow. So that means we control the hammer with the thumb that works the lever. I think. So what do you real SIG owners say?

Bart Noir

 

[1911Tuner]

Need Proof on This One

I personally know of a case wherein a cocked and locked 1911 was fired by a blow to the hammer, and no parts were broken at all. Most of us have seen SA autos go full-auto, from a bad trigger job, etc, and no parts were broken, either. The SA auto might be a bit more dangerous, but it's also a bit more effective when you need a gun.

The most compact, alloy framed LDA makes the 1911 somewhat "pocketable" in a front pants pocket, because you save 1/2" of length when the hammer is down.

So...You're sayin' that you actually saw the pistol fire from a blow to the hammer, and afterward, the gun functioned normally?

Sorry, mah fren...I don't wanna cause ya any grief, but unless some moron has been hackin' at the internals with a chisel...If the pistol is cocked with the thumb safety engaged...and it receives a blow to the hammer that is of sufficient force to take it all the way to the firing pin, it would have to break two hammer hooks and the half-cock notch...minimum. Not tryin' to pick a fight...but I'd hafta see it happen.

 

[dairycreek]

Carrying any gun has some degree of danger associated with it!!!

Don't care if its is a revolver, a pistol, or what and it doesn't really matter just how they are carried. Guns are dangerous and that's the bottom line.

Are 1911's carried in Condition 1 (cocked and locked) any more or less dangerous than any of their counterparts? I don't think so. As a number of posters have pointed out there are at least two redundant safety systems (safety and grip safety) that must fail before the trigger is depressed (third safety system by the way) and a 1911 discharges. INMHO that is as safe as a hangun can get. Good shooting

 

[Black Snowman]

I don't even need the grip safety or FP safety for my warm fuzzies. I'd happily carry a CZ 75 (non-B) C&L but wouldn't trust it hammer down on a round. With the "B" hammer down on a round is OK but I still prefer C&L.

 

[1911Tuner]

Guarantee

Post deleted...ROFL...