Is Para Right...1911 Cocked and Locked are dangerous???

[Ky Larry]

If JMB had inended the 1911 to be carried with the hammer down, he would have said so. This is just another case of someone trying to fix something on the 1911 that ain't broke. My $0.02 worth.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If JMB had inended the 1911 to be carried with the hammer down, he would have said so. This is just another case of someone trying to fix something on the 1911 that ain't broke. My $0.02 worth.

Amazing how something so simple generates so much argument. The act of lowering the hammer is far more dangerous than carrying cocked-and-locked, yet because they think it LOOKS safer, many people take that risk on a daily basis.

 

[Old Fuff]

If JMB had inended the 1911 to be carried with the hammer down, he would have said so. This is just another case of someone trying to fix something on the 1911 that ain't broke. My $0.02 worth.

John Browning did indeed say so ....

As late as 1910 the Army was still testing prototypes that didn't have a safety lock (a.k.a. "manual safety"). Browning did indeed intend that the pistol be carried and cocked for the first shot, or with the chamber empty. His "Special Model of 1910" had a safety lock added at the last minute because the Cavalry was afraid that a trooper might jam a cocked and loaded pistol back into his holster if he had to bring his mount under control with both hands. Browning's position was that this was an answer looking for a question because he had addressed the issue with a grip safety as early as 1908. But as they say, "the customer is always right" so the safety lock was added.

None of Browning's previous .38 caliber pistols had a safety lock or grip safety.

The concept of carrying the pistol cocked & locked with a loaded chamber has never been advocated by the military services as a regular procedure, and the practice did not become common in civilian or law enforcement circles until the 1960's as a result of Jeff Cooper's writings.

This is not to suggest that cocked & locked carry is particularly dangerous if the user is well trained and experienced. However the statement that "John Browning intended that the pistol be carried this way" is a pure myth.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The concept of carrying the pistol cocked & locked with a loaded chamber has never been advocated by the military services as a regular procedure, and the practice did not become common in civilian or law enforcement circles until the 1960's as a result of Jeff Cooper's writings.

Actually, while carrying with an empty chamber was the preferred method, the military recognized cocked-and-locked carry as acceptable, if "immediate use in anticipated."

The military never advocated carrying with the hammer down, nor at half-cock.

Added later, from FM 25-35:

"In campaign, when early use of the pistol is not foreseen, it should be carried with a fully loaded magazine in the socket, chamber empty, hammer down. When early use of the pistol is probable, It should be carried loaded and locked in the holster or hand. In campaign, extra magazines should be carried fully loaded." (My emphasis.)

 

[Old Fuff]

What I said was :

The concept of carrying the pistol cocked & locked with a loaded chamber has never been advocated by the military services as a regular procedure...

Obviously if one was on a battlefield with action ongoing someone indeed might go to cocked and locked carry, although if the pistol was in a military holster most of the advantage would be lost. So far as that's concerned, a casual observer couldn't tell if the pistol was cocked or not if it was covered by a full flap. With that limited exception, cocked & locked carry was not encouraged, and was sometimes outright prohibited by unit commanders - field manual or not.

My core point was however:

This is not to suggest that cocked & locked carry is particularly dangerous if the user is well trained and experienced. However the statement that "John Browning intended that the pistol be carried this way" is a pure myth.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Obviously if one was on a battlefield with action ongoing someone indeed might go to cocked and locked carry, although if the pistol was in a military holster most of the advantage would be lost. So far as that's concerned, a casual observer couldn't tell if the pistol was cocked or not if it was covered by a full flap. With that limited exception, cocked & locked carry was not encouraged, and was sometimes outright prohibited by unit commanders - field manual or not.

My point is, the Army sanctioned cocked-and-locked carry when appropriate. The pistol was designed for the Army -- which is to say, not to meet the designer's concept of employment but the Army's concept.

 

[Dorrin79]

Unsafe? No more than any other loaded weapon.

I actually thought the LDA trigger was amazingly light/slick on the Para Carry I shot a couple weeks ago. Just not a fan of DAO.