Is printing really so bad?

[kd7nqb]

As many of you know who have followed my posts I am soon approaching my 21st birthday and thus have began to look at my CCW options. In recent days I have tried several different carry options just around the house (again not yet 21 so I cant CCW all day) and I notice one thing. In 90% of all the configurations I have tried there is no printing at all if I think it through. Also many times I think I pick up on printing because I "know" its there. I mostly have just been doing mirror checks. So my question is two fold

1. Is a little printing alright? aka, the corner of slide or IWB clip

2. I don't really care if somebody "knows" I am packing since I would only do it in a legal manner in a legal place. Is there a legal ramification if I do print? would it be considered open carry? Also does any of this change since Oregon allows open carry outside of certain cities. It does not bother me that people know I carry. I work with firearms rights groups all the time and am active in politics. Infact many of my buddies assumed I carried until they realized my age.

 

[Tommygunn]

I think a lot depends on your state. Printing IS a bad thing because it shows you're carrying a gun. It's called "concealed carry" for a reason -- CONCEALED. If somebody notes the outline of a gun on your jacket, then it isn't really concealed.
I think you should ask a local authority on CCW for a answer. Apparantly some localities are more forgiving than are others.

 

[ezypikns]

Printing may cause you to lose your license in Texas.

It's a CONCEALED handgun license.

 

[real_name]

He's not in Texas though.
Anyone from Oregon here presently to help out with relevant advice?

 

[kd7nqb]

I feel like I should add this

none of the methods that I would use would make it obvious to a common passerby that I was packing, more like I happen to turn a wierd way or something and a corner presses on my shirt. Also it seems logical that other CCW holders would be more apt to notice and proboly the least likely to care.

 

[tulsamal]

In Oklahoma, it's a little more involved than that. Our CCW instructor said that "a bump is just a bump." You might have a pager or phone or some kind of Leatherman tool on your belt under there. If someone is going to claim "they know that guy has a gun," the relevant question for the responding officer is, "what does the gun look like?" If they can't tell the officer _specifially_ that it is blue or silver, auto or revolver, has black grips or wood ones, etc, then they didn't actually SEE the gun. They just saw something they _interpreted_ to be a gun. That bump under your jacket is concealed if nobody actually knows EXACTLY what it is.

Same thing with something like a Wilderness Safepacker. You can say "everybody knows people carry guns in those things" but can you see it? Can you describe the gun? Then it is concealed!

Gregg

 

[Hoppy590]

i always hate when people say the old " concealed means concealed". Ms. Johnson your third grade teacher is rolling over in her grave for using a word in its definition.


printing is bad because it could expose you to a gun grab or being the first guy shot.

at the same time some will claim that it deters agression


in conclusion. im being yoda and not actualy answering the question

 

[RyanM]

If it's printing really obviously, bad. If all you can see is a little bulge or something, no one's going to know it's a gun. FWIW, if you carry in an OWB holster, you may have to worry a bit less about the gun being accidentally completely exposed. Many people, cops included, seem to have this notion that only "good guys" ever carry in a holster, while bad guys simply jam the gun into their waistband.

 

[Snap]

People are fairly dense when it comes to such matters. A bump under your shirt/jacket could be a pager, cell phone, leatherman tool, or colostomy bag. Don't act like you have a gun and no one will notice you have a gun. Most often, it's just that simple.

 

[DRMMR02]

This may sounds strange, but I think if you dress nicely, it's not as bad. One of my biggest fears about printing or exposing is that someone will see my weapon and call the police while I'm just out doing my business. But on the other hand, I have been wearing khakis and a nice button up shirt and actually had someone who saw my weapon ask if I was a cop. I think it has a lot to do with the illusion people have of who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. I totally believe that if I were wearing ripped up jeans and a Dream Theater shirt, that same person would have freaked out.

So I say, if you look pretty nice, it's not that bad. But if you look like what most people think of as "thug", you're in for some hassle.

 

[Doug.38PR]

Printing may cause you to lose your license in Texas.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He's not in Texas though.
Anyone from Oregon here presently to help out with relevant advice

My CHL instructor in Houston told me that if you for instance have a snubbie in your pocket and you lift your leg or sit down to where the pocket pulls tight around the gun and prints through then you are still legally concealed. As long as you are making a reasonable effort to conceal it then I understand that it is even legally okay if you have a gun on under your jacket and are in the grocery store and reach up to the top shelf to grab something and briefly expose your gun. I was told, by men who work with my CHL instuctor at the same store, that they amended the law to where as long as you are making "a reasonable effort" to conceal it, then you are okay.

NOW, having said that, I would minimize this happening as much as possible. I even though legal, I don't want anyone to find out if I am carrying.

kd7,
as to your question, I went through the same fear 3 years ago. You are the only one who notices it. Nobody else will. A piece of your holster or a part from the gun "printing" is not the whole gun and nobody, even if they do notice, won't be able to make it out as a gun. It could be anything.

On the other hand, kinda funny, I was working in a conference room with a lady the other day and leaned over the table (I was wearing my shoulder holster) and my speedloader pouch printed against the inside of my windbreaker onmy right side. She immediately saw it and said "okay what are you packing." It wasn't a gun, but she thought it was because "something" printed against the inside of my coat. I told here it wasn't a gun, but my cell phone. (a half truth)

 

[eastwood44mag]

I think the printing issue depends on what it looks like (i.e. does it look like a blackberry, a cell phone, a pager, or a DE?).

I am not an expert, nor do I claim to be.

 

[Robert Hairless]

I don't really care if somebody "knows" I am packing since I would only do it in a legal manner in a legal place. Is there a legal ramification if I do print?

Yes, there are legal ramifications if somebody discovers you are "packing." Your state's law is a crucial part of those ramifications but only part of them.

Equally important are public attitudes and those of the law enforcement officers who might respond to the man-with-a-gun call that anyone could make. If you don't crave such attention and aren't interested in showing off your permit to an apprehensive police officer who doesn't know that you're a wonderful person, who wouldn't hurt a fly, and are just simpleminded, it's much smarter to be as discrete as possible.

Keep in mind, by the way, that you might find yourself detained or arrested by an officer who doesn't know the law or perhaps knows it better than everyone here. If such a situation goes downhill, it can do so very fast and you might find yourself needing to hire a lawyer to get you out of a mess that you could have avoided.

Never call attention to yourself or to your possession of a weapon. Chances are you might live longer too.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I don't really care if somebody "knows" I am packing since I would only do it in a legal manner in a legal place

You should. Legal or not, the sheeple tend to freak out and it simply isn't worth the negative attention and possible run in with LEO's.

On that note, an anonymous "bump" under your clothing isn't printing. People carry so much crap these days that no one will pay particular attention to it unless it is an obvious firearm outline.

 

[possum]

i have never had a problem with any handguns that I carry, i also believe that is partially to the credit to the way i dress,. if i am carrying my kahr then a t-shirt is suffecient. if i am carrying my xd, normally so around the holiday season, and when it is cold out, i wear a t shirt under a button up shirt that is un button, and i have had no one notice that i am aware, if i strap on my ccw before i go out somewhere, and my wife dosen't see me put it on them she has no idea and she normally is loking for things like that. the only way she knows in most situations is if she bumps up next to me or sees me taking it off later in the day.

 

[kengrubb]

Is printing really so bad?

As with all things, it depends.

I have tried several different carry options just around the house ... In 90% of all the configurations I have tried there is no printing at all if I think it through.

Concealed carry is a lifestyle choice and generally involves some wardrobe alteration. If one carries IWB or OWB, then either tall sized shirts or shirts one size up might be required if those will be the concealing garments.

1. Is a little printing alright? aka, the corner of slide or IWB clip

Some printing is inevitable, but there is a difference between printing and flashing. Printing is when the outline or shape of the gun is visible when the concealing garment presses up against the gun. Flashing is when some part of the gun or holster itself is visible. Flashing is generally much more frowned upon than is printing. If you flash, there's a good chance someone will call the cops. If you print and someone calls the cops, it's much more likely the cops will pick at the caller asking why they were staring so intently that they saw the partial outline of a gun.

2. I don't really care if somebody "knows" I am packing

You never know who the damn fool is where firearms are concerned.

Is there a legal ramification if I do print? would it be considered open carry?

Not a lawyer. My parents are married.

Almost certainly not--least of all in a state like Washington or Oregon. In California it might well be a different story.

No state's concealed carry law says anything anal like "no surface of the gun visible, completely concealed from view, and neither shapes nor outlines of a gun or part of a gun which may tend to intimate a gun may be exposed or visible."

The reasonable man interpretation is concealed from ordinary view using reasonable means. Some accidental printing or flashing may occur, and reasonable people will acknowledge this can happen unintentionally. Intentional flashing is an act of intimidation, perhaps even assault. Intentional printing could possibly be construed as an assault, but that's a bit more of a stretch.

Again, not a lawyer. Speaking thru my hat.

Also does any of this change since Oregon allows open carry outside of certain cities.

These are good questions for the OR-CCW list.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/or-ccw/

It does not bother me that people know I carry.

It may not bother you, but you should exercise discretion in telling people you carry. Treat it as a "need to know" situation. A spouse or paramour would probably need to know so as not to be surprised out in public putting their arm around one and remarking, "Is that a pistol in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"

Small children, nieces, nephews, what have you do not need to know. It's information they might blurt out at an inappropriate time.

Friends and coworkers, unless you know exactly where they stand on the issue, I would suggest NOT telling them. Too many people feel free to use gunownership to exercise a bit of Jim Crow nostalgia and discriminate, chastise and verbally attack.

The merits of surprise could be lost at a most inopportune moment by a bubble-headed friend. "Fred, use your gun!"

 

[expvideo]

Yes, there are legal ramifications if somebody discovers you are "packing." Your state's law is a crucial part of those ramifications but only part of them.

Equally important are public attitudes and those of the law enforcement officers who might respond to the man-with-a-gun call that anyone could make. If you don't crave such attention and aren't interested in showing off your permit to an apprehensive police officer who doesn't know that you're a wonderful person, who wouldn't hurt a fly, and are just simpleminded, it's much smarter to be as discrete as possible.

Keep in mind, by the way, that you might find yourself detained or arrested by an officer who doesn't know the law or perhaps knows it better than everyone here. If such a situation goes downhill, it can do so very fast and you might find yourself needing to hire a lawyer to get you out of a mess that you could have avoided.

Never call attention to yourself or to your possession of a weapon. Chances are you might live longer too.

Mind qouting a law or.. anything to back up this statement?

No, there are no legal ramifications in Oregon, except for in the two cities that don't allow OC without a CCW. OC is legal in your state, therefor you have no obligation to conceal it, or have it fully concealed.

I can't stand hearing people tell me that "if somebody sees your gun, they can call the police and have you arrested". Open carry is legal in 43 states, and therefor that statement is wrong (at least in 43 states... including Oregon). In Texas this is different, but he's not in texas.

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

A bump under your shirt/jacket could be a pager, cell phone, leatherman tool, or colostomy bag. Don't act like you have a gun and no one will notice you have a gun. Most often, it's just that simple.

Aye

 

[DesertShooter]

I've CCW'ed for 35+ years, as a LEO and as a retired LEO. I'm sure that I've "printed" slightly in the past, but most people are NOT very observant! YOU know that you're carrying, but since your firearm isn't exposed to the view of others, they probably have NO idea as to what that odd-shaped "print" through your clothing might be.

While you're experimenting with your carry, do some more with your body positioning and clothing styles.

Want some humor? A former LEO partner of mine must have "printed" through his clothing at one time, for a man asked him if he was carrying a firearm.
That partner gave the man a puzzled look, then responded with, "No, that's my colostomy bag! Want to see it? Oh, and thanks for reminding me....I need to empty it!". The man did NOT ask to see it!

It's a good idea to be prepared if someone "makes" you. ALWAYS have your CCW permit readily available, and your reaction to being "made" should be calm and easily viewed as not being "offensive".

Oh, and the "body positioning" aspect that I mentioned....if you carry in an IWB, your elbows and forearms work nicely to press your firearm out of view. Stand in front of a mirror and cant your body to one side or the other, so that you can't see any "printing". Wear slightly "baggy" shirts, but not outlandishly "baggy".....just don't try to conceal a firearm under a tight-fitting shirt. If the weather permits, outer clothing such as thin windbreakers work great....just don't zip them up!

Lastly, use good old common sense! If you get "made", and if you've calmly explained that you're a legal CCW permitee, but that doesn't "cut it" with whomever "made" you, you might want to turn and walk away....or maybe have a fake colostomy bag on your side, filled with apple juice!

 

[MrTwigg]

Here in PRM it depends largely on where you are. Some cities / towns are rabidly anit-gun. Out where I live it's fairly relaxed. Although open carry is technically legal, very few choose to do this as mant local PD's are not in favor of this. "Printing" generally is not a hugh issue, but inadvertenly letting your shirt or jacket slide or fly up to expose your firearm can get your LTC pulled.

A former LEO partner of mine must have "printed" through his clothing at one time, for a man asked him if he was carrying a firearm.
That partner gave the man a puzzled look, then responded with, "No, that's my colostomy bag! Want to see it? Oh, and thanks for reminding me....I need to empty it!". The man did NOT ask to see it!

I need to remember that one !

 

[Desk Jockey]

Not a lawyer. My parents are married.

I suspect there's a good joke here that I'm not quite able to ferret out.

 

[XavierBreath]

1. Is a little printing alright? aka, the corner of slide or IWB clip

Printing through clothing? Marginally OK. It should go away as you change position. We should not be able to see the checkering on your KelTec through your Spandex pants. Occasionally seeing the pocketed J frame cylinder print through khakis as you walk is OK in my book. If the Khakis are so tight that you can see the gun through the clothing as you stand there, you need to adjust your wardrobe, your gun, or both.

2. I don't really care if somebody "knows" I am packing since I would only do it in a legal manner in a legal place.

You should care. What do you do when you dimwitted friends start arguments and then turn to you to finish them? What do you do when some woman in the grocery line calls the police on her cell phone? What do you do when some punk walks up behind you, busts your head with a brick, and then gets double prizes with your wallet and your gun?

Concealed carry is not a game. It is not a self agrandizement scheme. It is a means of having what you need to save your life if necessary. If you are still pedaling a bike around with basketweave handcuffs when you get your CCW license, then you need to do quite a bit of self refection.

 

[rhubarb]

My CHL instructor in Houston told me that if you for instance have a snubbie in your pocket and you lift your leg or sit down to where the pocket pulls tight around the gun and prints through then you are still legally concealed. As long as you are making a reasonable effort to conceal

My CHL instructor pulled his windbreaker tight around his OWB 1911 and asked, "Now can that be anything other than a gun?" It merely printed as a lump, not readily identifiable as a gun, and I could think of a lot of other things it could be. He told us that the least amount of printing would result in jail time, losing our license, and countless other unspeakable horrors.

I bet that it depends more on who sees it, their reaction, the cop's reaction if he is called, and the DA's reaction if it goes that far than it depends on the letter of the law. Corner of the slide? Not concealed. Belt clip only? Concealed.

It's not that hard to conceal a handgun, but don't think it's not a big deal.

 

[clt46910]

I have printed a few times, I am sure. Most people never notice. I was asked a while back if I had a gun on by a old man that seen a flash of leather under my shirt. I pulled my open shirt back and showed him the leatherman in the leather sheath he had seen on my left side. He never knew I was carrying a Kimber Pro on my right side.

I been carrying for years, I never worry about it anymore. Most LEO's I know are fairly cool about things. They would just ask to see your permit around here and most would never even ask to see your gun. Unless it was one that knew me. I am known for carrying cool guns...

 

[Zundfolge]

Is printing really so bad?

Not really (unless you live in a state with stupid rules about printing. And even then...).

99.999999% of the time you can be seriously printing and NO-FREAKIN'-BODY can tell.

Ask the guys who open carry ... much of the time NOBODY NOTICES THE PISTOL HANGING ON THEIR HIP IN PLAIN VIEW!

So don't worry so much about printing, more often than not even if someone notices a bulge, they aren't going to think its a gun (especially in this day and age where most people wear as much crap on their belts as Batman).

Actually if you're real worried about printing and as such keep fiddling with the gun or your cover garment THAT will let people know you're carrying much quicker than some mysterious bulge under your shirt.

I remember a lady backed into my gun at Walmart oneday ... she smacked it pretty good with her elbow. Her reaponse was "Oh, I hope I didn't damage your cell phone"