Why so paranoid?

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Deaminator said:
Allegedly, Texas
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While I can't speak intelligently about Florida law I can say, Texas, without a doubt, has no prohibition to printing codified anywhere in its Penal Code.

Texas does have a law against the Intentional Failure To Conceal which is more akin to lifting up your shirt during an argument to display a weapon.

I have never, once, ever seen anyone provide any proof, at all, of people in Texas successfully prosecuted for printing, handwringing about the matter is in no short supply however.

It appears, to me, that the cries from the carry community in Texas about "printing" being illegal are an end-run tactic to get open carry passed "so we won't go to jail for printing." However, much like malicious prosecutors embarking on a crusade against a person for using hand-loaded ammo, there just is no credible evidence to support the claim.

I wonder if Florida has similar stautues (our laws were based almost entirely on their model) and a similar dearth of actual cases where law abiding people were hauled off to the pokey for printing.
 
"So, why so paranoid?"

Because those who carry think the rest of the world is much more observant then they really are. It's like those people who will say a fanny pack "screams gun" when in reality it does not to the average person... It is human nature to project one's own self conscious feelings to others. Some of it is about attitude and how you carry yourself and perceive yourself. Some are self conscious about it and are convinced everyone else can see the .25 mouse gun they have in an IWB holster under a shirt, sweater, and jacket. :neener:
 
In some places, "printing" is a crime.
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Where?
Where?
Where?

I am not talking about "brandishing" nor am I talking about "showing off".

Only one person has EVER pointed out to me that they could see the butt of my revolver sticking out of my pants pocket. More people may have seen part of my weapon at other times, but in 20 years, only one person as ever said anything!

Another person used the term "hand-wringing", perhaps that is a more appropriate word than "paranoia" with regard to this attitude that I observe among many.

For the record, I never "show off", yet only on one of the 7,000 plus days that I have been licensed to carry has someone "made" me.

Once, my civilian uncle was reporting to a responding officer the events that occurred outside his home, with one of the "participants" present. The police officer saw the butt of uncle's weapon sticking outside of the front pocket of his jeans. With her index finger, she pushed the weapon farther down into his pocket and said "You watch that!" and gave a wag of the finger. (Black female officer, white male uncle, in Miami suburb.) (The Bad Guys did get a ride downtown.)

Other than "A Wag of the Finger", no problems!
 
Texas failure to conceal

As HKUSP45C correctly pointed out, in Texas it is not illegal to print. It is illegally for a CHL holder to "intentionally fail to conceal", meaning to purposely expose the concealed weapon. Yes, open carry is illegal in Texas.

However, there are good reasons to be fastidious about concealing that have nothing to do with legality or illegality of accidentally exposing the concealed firearm. In Austin a couple of years ago at a Mister Car Wash near my home, there was a huge commotion because a CHL holder was bending into his auto to remove some materials from the floor prior to vacuuming the car, resulting in an exposed weapon. He became the unfortunate victim of a MWAG call, with several police cruisers surrounding him and officers with weapons drawn. To me, that is a very good reason to maintain vigilence about keeping the firearm concealed, but exposing it accidentally is not illegal.
 
Maybe I was paying attention when my CHL Instructor..

made the statement that exposing your weapon or printing in a way that left no doubt that you're carrying might be interpreted as brandishing.

My guess is that it would have to be pretty blatant and careless. Even so, concealed carry is what we have here, and most people who care enough to apply for and receive a concealed carry license are law abiding people by nature.

Many people new to concealed carry are probably overly concerned with printing at first. That's natural, I believe. Think of all the folks proudly doing the "Wally World Walk".

It doesn't take long though to discover that nobody really cares what you do, and no one pays that much attention anyway. They're too concerned about themselves.
 
I don't care if I print or not.

The truth is most people won't notice even if you are printing. People just generally aren't that observant of others to notice an outline or bulge under somebody's shirt. You could be badly printing and walk around all day and maybe just maybe someone will be checking you out long enough to take notice or your print. However I think on average people don't scrutinize other people in public that carefully to notice.
 
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Maybe I was paying attention when my CHL Instructor made the statement that exposing your weapon or printing in a way that left no doubt that you're carrying might be interpreted as brandishing.
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I can't imagine the circumstance that would lead to arrest for brandishing if you never took a firing grip on your weapon and your weapon never left the holster.

However, there are good reasons to be fastidious about concealing that have nothing to do with legality or illegality of accidentally exposing the concealed firearm. In Austin a couple of years ago at a Mister Car Wash near my home, there was a huge commotion because a CHL holder was bending into his auto to remove some materials from the floor prior to vacuuming the car, resulting in an exposed weapon. He became the unfortunate victim of a MWAG call, with several police cruisers surrounding him and officers with weapons drawn. To me, that is a very good reason to maintain vigilence about keeping the firearm concealed, but exposing it accidentally is not illegal.
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I had a similar incident that resulted in me loosing about 30 min. I suspect I fared better than your man in Austin since he likely lost 30 min and the cost of the vacuum rental at the car wash.
 
printing

A cop once became aware that I was carrying. He detained me and spent 45 minutes on the computer, car radio, cell phone, walkie talkie, etc., checking me out. As it happened I was in no hurry, but I still didn't appreciate the check out. After all, why have a permit if you have to go through all that? The point of the permit is to show you have already been checked out.

Now suppose I had a VERY important appointment to make or drop dead. I would have been PO'd.

Also, it was a may issue state. Make waves and you're SOL at renewal time.
 
I CCed a time or two before I had my CHP, but printing or getting caught was the least of my worries...

For the most part, I dont worry about printing for this reason:
After carrying for a few years I realized 95% of the population is in condition "semi-conscious" meaning they wouldn't see a .50 cal barret under your shirt.
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Lots of folks are mentioning OC laws, so I'll mention OC is a gray area here in NC.
 
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In 14 years of carrying, no one has ever told me that I was printing or flashing. At the same time, however, I don't worry about it much. Utah is an OC state, and I honestly think that most of the people who would notice are cops and other gun guys, so I don't mind anyway. (Same reason I don't worry about carrying a fanny pack.)
 
Most of the time, I'm not concerned at all about printing. In Oregon, open carry is allowed, and the localities I frequent are pretty gun-friendly. If I go to a restaurant with my Glock 26 in a blade-tech OWB holster under a suit jacket, I'll usually take off the jacket before the meal, and 90% of the people around me never notice. Including the people that know I carry. It's true, most people have zero awareness of their surroundings.
 
I guess chalk it up to etiquette. Its not that printing may be illegal or anything. But, it behooves one to take the necessary precautions to make sure it either does not happen or is minimized at least. After all, not everyone around you is going to perceive your CCW as a good thing...ya' know? So why advertise if you can avoid it?

Personally, I find it gratifying when I can carry almost anywhere (within legal bounds) without one person knowing about it. If Im "printing," then Im doing something wrong as far as I see it.
 
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If you live in Texas, you don't need to be paranoid but you'd better be really, really careful. Most cops I know couldn't care less, but Murphy has it that the one I'd run into some day when I'm printing would be the one in a hundred that does. Besides, a Jagwear belt pouch is so bloody easy to use it's nearly open carry and 100% legal, even if it's about as "concealed" as an 18-wheeler. :D

I can't afford a ticket, or an attorney; I'd rather spend the money on more ammunition if I can ever find it. Hence my care.

Jan

ETA: I've never done an exhaustive search for cases brought to trial for this, but like others, my CHL instructor was adamant that if your overshirt blows open while you're pumping gas, for example, and you get a MWAG (or for me a WWAG) you can be cited for intentional failure to conceal. I agree that it stretches the word "intentional" far past the logical breaking point, but it is what it is, and as I said, I don't want the hassle. Or the ticket.
 
Lots of folks are mentioning OC laws, so I'll mention OC is a gray area here in NC.
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One of the cops that I encountered when I inadvertently exposed here tried the "gray area" line on me. I shot it down in flames like a kamikaze. I made sure to mention it in my letter to the chief of police. It's NOT a "gray area" here in Ohio, and the Ohio AG's office has made that ABUNDANTLY clear. Open carry is 100% legal, and not RAS or PC of ANYTHING.
 
Not Worried

I live in Tennessee where we have a handgun carry permit. A permit is necessary to openly or conceal carry a handgun under most circumstances unless say hunting or fishing. I am not too worried about 'printing' because I can legally open carry, if i so choose, but I conceal, unless i'm going to the range or woods and i'm stopping to say pump gas.

When traveling to Arkansas (conceal carry required), i still do not worry. I use a pocket holster with a j frame hammerless revolver and no one notices. The law in Arkansas requires that the handgun be covered from view. There is nothing in the law about 'printing'. You can have a 44 mag with a 10 inch barrel under a jacket as long as it is covered and you are legal there. It doesn't matter how big of a bulge the handgun makes, regarding the law. All that matters is that the handgun is covered.

People are generally in their own little worlds. They do not pay attention to other people. Pumping gas in TN with an openly carried Glock on the way to the range no one has yet to say anything to me. They either don't care or don't notice.
 
I've been carrying for a loooong time, and my experience is you could be towing an M198 155mm howitzer and most people wouldn't notice.

And here in Arkansas if they did notice, they'd ask where you got it, how much it cost, and does Wal-Mart sell ammo for it.:D
 
Riddle me this: Why are so many internet-CCW guys sooooo paranoid about "printing" and/or having part of their more-or-less concealed weapon being seen?
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I live in an open carry State. However you can CC places you cannot open carry to. Also it is illegal to print even if you are in an area that is ok to open carry. Just imagine that convenience store owner in the first Bad Boys he seen the cops' guns tucked in the cops' waist band and freaked out. Now imagine that and you are not a cop...
 
there's always going to be that one gas bag granny that still has enough on the ball to recognize a gun on someone but is old and scared enough to cause a real fuss about it.
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Not always, by any means.

On the other hand, I had a friend who broke his back. He was just out of surgery, walking with a cane, and travelling through New Jersey (his wife driving.) They went into a Subway's to get sandwiches, came out, and as they were pulling out of the parking lot were suddenly surrounded by cop cars. My friend was hauled out of the car and thrown to the ground.

Some idiot, seeing his cane, had called in "Man with a gun."
 
I don't consider it paranoia for me. I'm a police officer, and I always carry concealed while I'm off-duty. To me, carrying concealed means exactly that... If I've decided to carry a concealed weapon I don't want to be printing, and I don't want to be "partially concealed".

A few reasons I think this is the case:

1) Being carefully concealed draws less attention than being half concealed.

2) Even when open carrying is allowed, I feel that you are asking for more trouble if an ill-informed "concerned citizen" spots the gun you attempted to conceal, versus a gun that you were obviously carrying openly (it brings in the whole: "Hi, 911? Yeah, there is a guy in the store who is trying to hide a gun right now, and I think he is about to rob the place" aspect. In fact, I know of a fellow officer who was once drawn on by a neighboring department after they received a call reporting him as a would-be robber, when a citizen spotted his concealed rig).

3) Staying concealed leaves the element of surprise on your side. I like to blend into a crowd. I don't dress in a manner that would suggest that I'm a cop, nor do a dress in a way that would suggest I have a gun. I'd rather be looking just like everyone else until such time as I needed to act in a situation!
 
Hide it.

I agree with the element of surprize. I live in a open carry state, and would never do it. There are alot of people that want to control everything, or make it hard for you to have what you want. It invites unwanted publicity.
Within the last few months there has been at least three permit holders in my state that have shot a hole in a toilet through a stall or somthing else. We as a group don't want that attention.:banghead:
 
Do I make an attempt to conceal my concealed weapon? Yes. Is concealment my #1 priority over quick access to the weapon? No. I don't make a huge effort to conceal. If when I bend over there's a small bulge on the back of my shirt from the grip, I'm not terribly worried. Most people won't notice it to begin with, and the ones who do will just think it's my cell phone or something. Do I wear a skin tight tank top with my 1911 in an OWB holster underneath? No.

I don't try to hide any sign that I have *something* under my clothes, but I do try to make it so it's not obvious what is there. That is where the difference comes in, in my opinion, between paranoia and good sense. If you're worried that one can even tell with close examination that you have *something* in your pocket you're paranoid.

I don't typically open carry, but I do support it, and those who do. It's the openly-concealed middle ground where you can run into at least inconvenience, even if it is legal.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for links to state laws stating that printing is illegal ANYWHERE. Not "If I recall" or "I heard that"...real, live links to state law. If you can't post that, shut up.
 
Gryffydd said"
Oh, and I'm still waiting for links to state laws stating that printing is illegal ANYWHERE. Not "If I recall" or "I heard that"...real, live links to state law. If you can't post that, shut up.
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I'll answer any post I feel like answering thank you. Whether you like it or not.
 
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