Is Russian Ammo getting Worse?

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wmgeorge

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After owning AR 15 off and on for the past 30 years, I have had a few jams or stuck Wolf ammo cases, but not many at all.

For the first time ever at the range Monday I had a stuck case, jammed rifle I could not clear. After I got home I finally did a Morter clear on it and got it out. Never ever before. The round looked very much out of spec. I do need to check the rest in that box.

Anybody else have recent issues?
 
Not only the ammo but the chambers sizes, there are 3 million chambers for the 223/556 nowadays. But yeah an out of spec case happens now and then from Run-of-the-mill ammo production. Also cleaning habits could play a role.
 
No problem with the 40 rounds shot last Friday. Of the Federal XM 855 twenty rounds box, 2 did not shoot.

Edited to add: Barnaul was the brand.
 
OP:
You realize that rigid steel cases allow more residue gunk to build up in chambers, as the residue blasts Around the rigid, seated cartridges?

This is nothing new. A gunsmith's evaluation was reported about fourteen years ago on PerfectUnion, which specialized in Mini 14 and 30 issues.

You Do clean your chambers pretty often?

I’ve used over 6,000-8,000 rds. (or more) of steel-cased ammo, about 99% of it in rifles, with nothing getting stuck. No extractor damage or anything else.

——Steel is preferred in my German-designed PTR :) rifle ( a US-made gun produced with German tooling) . It is a clone of the famous G3/ HK-91.

The violent extraction energy can tear brass apart in a Clean HK/PTR Chamber- due to brass being much weaker.
I ordered 1,000 rds. of Russian ammo in the last two weeks for this new rifle.
 
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Not only the ammo but the chambers sizes, there are 3 million chambers for the 223/556 nowadays. But yeah an out of spec case happens now and then from Run-of-the-mill ammo production. Also cleaning habits could play a role.

This.

And don't forget the fact that Eugene Stoner did not spend a lot of time on cartridge design, and he sure as heck did not analyze the expansion and contraction characteristics of his cartridge with steel as a material.

The Russians did everything, at an industrial level, with the 7.62 X 39 cartridge, and the time and effort they spent designing their cartridge, keeping pressures 45 Kpsia instead of the 223 62 Kpsia, and using steel as a case material, are a couple of reasons why no one complains about 7.62 X 39 reliability in Russian weapons. Wolf, cannot control what reamers American's use.

Don't have one of these Chinese rounds or the rifle to shoot, but it is obvious this round is an excellent design for a military weapon.

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The Chinese kept the pressures down to 41,500 psia, they are using a steel case with lots of taper and a thick rim. Stoner started with the 222 Remington, which was brass cased, and built for bolt guns. Stoner played with shoulder angles and OAL, said he designed a bullet, but the 223 is a back of the envelope kludge. In surviving youtube interviews, Stoner does not mention modeling the case and examining case contraction and expansion in the chamber. He himself could not have done so as he was not an engineer, and I doubt he had the technical support to do that. Eugene was not a cartridge designer, so the concepts probably evaded him. And then, the high pressures he had to use to reach the velocity criteria thought to be ideal at the time, created the conditions for little margin for error in anything. The cartridge is very sensitive about materials, mechanical dimensions in chamber, throat, barrel, and sensitive as regards heat. Heat raises pressures.
 
This.

And don't forget the fact that Eugene Stoner did not spend a lot of time on cartridge design, and he sure as heck did not analyze the expansion and contraction characteristics of his cartridge with steel as a material.

The Russians did everything, at an industrial level, with the 7.62 X 39 cartridge, and the time and effort they spent designing their cartridge, keeping pressures 45 Kpsia instead of the 223 62 Kpsia, and using steel as a case material, are a couple of reasons why no one complains about 7.62 X 39 reliability in Russian weapons. Wolf, cannot control what reamers American's use.

Don't have one of these Chinese rounds or the rifle to shoot, but it is obvious this round is an excellent design for a military weapon.

View attachment 1056810

The Chinese kept the pressures down to 41,500 psia, they are using a steel case with lots of taper and a thick rim. Stoner started with the 222 Remington, which was brass cased, and built for bolt guns. Stoner played with shoulder angles and OAL, said he designed a bullet, but the 223 is a back of the envelope kludge. In surviving youtube interviews, Stoner does not mention modeling the case and examining case contraction and expansion in the chamber. He himself could not have done so as he was not an engineer, and I doubt he had the technical support to do that. Eugene was not a cartridge designer, so the concepts probably evaded him. And then, the high pressures he had to use to reach the velocity criteria thought to be ideal at the time, created the conditions for little margin for error in anything. The cartridge is very sensitive about materials, mechanical dimensions in chamber, throat, barrel, and sensitive as regards heat. Heat raises pressures.

Well, the internet engineers have spoken so it must be true.

Blame it on the designer and the gun, couldn't be that the ammo is garbage :confused:
 
I've seen plenty of 5.56 AR rifles get steel cased ammo stuck in the chamber over the years. And I have also seen brass cased ammo get stuck after shooting a bunch of steel case ammo too. Most of the time it boils down to keeping the chamber clean when shooting steel case ammo. As noted, steel cases do not expand to seal the chamber from gas and carbon like brass cases do.
 
........ steel cases do not expand to seal the chamber from gas and carbon like brass cases do.
I've been told many times "Steel expands to seal the chamber but it does not contract after peak pressure because it is not "elastic" like brass. That's why ComBloc weapons run at more modest pressures so the empties will extract." Seems reasonable. Joe
 
Wolf has two current avenues of importation for steel ammo. Military Classic and the Poly line are both Barnual. Wolf performance ammo is currently from Tula. The gold line is wherever they can get brass ammo from. Taiwan is the source of the 5.56.

The boxes of ammo you see from Tulammo in the US are imported by Grasso Holdings. They import Tula ammo.

Vympel has never had one consistent importer as far as I know.
 
I've been told many times "Steel expands to seal the chamber but it does not contract after peak pressure because it is not "elastic" like brass. That's why ComBloc weapons run at more modest pressures so the empties will extract." Seems reasonable. Joe

The reason is because COM BLOC guns were design from teh ground up to use steel case ammo. Most will have stringer extractor springs and such. That is the reason you see some pool have issues with case rims being torn when shooting brass cased ammo in COM BLOC rifles.
 
"Russian ammo" is too broad a term.

There's a lot of Russian ammo made at different plants that are very different from each other. People are equally mistaken when they broad brush steel case for the same reason. No two ammo plants are alike.

I wouldn't fret too much because of a stuck case or two. I wouldn't come to the conclusion that a certain type of ammo is getting worse based on that experience.

I've had American made brass case rounds malfunction, so it happens to the best of them as well as to the worst. As mentioned, Wolf has a spotty reputation because it's not all made in one plant. There are many different types of Wolf.

In my experience the two best ammo plants in Russia are Barnaul and Vympel. Barnaul brands ammo under the Barnaul name, and also other brands such as Silver Bear. It's pretty good stuff.

Vympel's claim to fame is Golden Tiger. Since about 2016 or 2017 you can buy the same round branded as Red Army Standard. And most recently the Golden Tiger round is disguised under the brand name MaxxTech Essential Steel.

Tula gets a bad rap and it's not my first choice, but keep in mind that Hornady got the Berdan primed cases from Tula for their steel case SST line. That stuff is super reliable and consistent... very accurate. The powder and projectiles are loaded state side, so Hornady's good QC practices make a difference.

PS: I don't have any Comm Bloc weapons. I run steel case through a Ruger Mini-30 and a CZ 527. I've put more steel case than brass through my Mini-30.
 
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A recent trip to my LGR, all the American brass 5.56 did fine, a few rounds of Tula and not as good, double feed jam. My S&W 645 acp looks like it got dipped in a charcoal bath, after 50 rds of Tula steel case. My S&W MP 9 seems to tolerate that junk pretty good. I'll not buy that commie crap, if any USA ammo is nearby..
 
The only steel-cased ammo which caused numerous odd issues for me...over many thousands of rds. of mostly US-made ammo.... was the US-made Winchester Forged (brownish/black box), although it was in 9x19 mm.

This was used in my Czech-made CZ PCR and Sig P225 (the actual German commercial version). Those guns are not considered garbage, from what I've read. ;)

JCooperfan1911: so true. And Cold War plus (nasty hot war in SE Asia) history can be "the elephant in the room", more than actual objective evaluations.

Back, more or less, to the mission objective:
LuckyGunner did a well-known test using thousands of rounds each...in two new AR-15s.
Brass vs. Steel Cased Ammo - An Epic Torture Test (luckygunner.com) Maybe it's not truly scientific, but I haven't noticed anybody else do any similar test, nor publish various gas pressure charts, document barrel erosion after 6,000 rounds etc.
 
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Well, the internet engineers have spoken so it must be true.

Blame it on the designer and the gun, couldn't be that the ammo is garbage :confused:

Well I just don’t know about this.

My Makarovs have had thousands, my AKs have had thousands. 0 failures through either with steel. They eat it like I eat quesabirrias con frijoles. Which is to say delightfully and with little complaint.
 
How do the primers look?

A pretty wide range of calibers of modern russian/ukranian steel cased ammo have had a documented hustiry ove the last two decades of popped primers.

(Just Google: "wolf ammo popped primers" for example))

Brittle primers is one possible cause. But it has been suggested that the popped primers could be related to hotter loads.

I"ve not seen the op casing in question, but could the stuck.casing be related to a hotter powder load ?
 
Well, the internet engineers have spoken so it must be true.

Blame it on the designer and the gun, couldn't be that the ammo is garbage :confused:

I would recommend, don't fly on a Boeing 737 Max 800. Boeing claims the plane was perfectly designed and perfectly built, but it is also a kludge, and even after all the "fixes" it remains a kludge. But then, maybe you work for Boeing.
 
I would recommend, don't fly on a Boeing 737 Max 800. Boeing claims the plane was perfectly designed and perfectly built, but it is also a kludge, and even after all the "fixes" it remains a kludge. But then, maybe you work for Boeing.
Not sure of your point? There are thousands of airplanes flying in the air today because of excellent engineering and quality control. The Max 800 had a single point of failure that can bring it to the ground if inexperienced pilots cannot figure out the correct bypass in that situation. The situation has been corrected and they are flying again.

Unlike the quality of the aircraft industry, that carries hundreds of thousands of people per day, the quality control of Russian steel cased ammo varies, and has proven to be unreliable in a gun designed to shoot brass cased ammunition.
 
As mentioned , the Tapered case helps quite a bit as well. Even the slightest rearward movement will pull the fired case away from the chamber walls on a Tapered round.

Even the earliest African Hunting rounds tended to have a tapered case to aid extraction. Also look at the .303 British cartridge.. plenty of taper.
 
Not sure of your point? There are thousands of airplanes flying in the air today because of excellent engineering and quality control. The Max 800 had a single point of failure that can bring it to the ground if inexperienced pilots cannot figure out the correct bypass in that situation. The situation has been corrected and they are flying again.

Unlike the quality of the aircraft industry, that carries hundreds of thousands of people per day, the quality control of Russian steel cased ammo varies, and has proven to be unreliable in a gun designed to shoot brass cased ammunition.


I agree with your last sentence, and I think I was too obtuse about Boeing. I just finished the book

Flying Blind: The 737 MAX Tragedy and the Fall of Boeing

https://www.amazon.com/Flying-Blind...5546491/ref=pd_lpo_1?pd_rd_i=0385546491&psc=1

and what is revealed is a plane in which the design was nicked and dimed to maximize corporate profits at the expense of safety. And the FAA has zero credibility , as Congress turned the FAA into a subordinate, rubber stamp organization to Boeing. Based on the duct tape and bailing wire fixes going into the 737 MAX, it is only a matter of if, not when, the next plane load of passengers goes down screaming to their deaths. There are a lot of baseline faults that are not being addressed and corrected, other than the automated kamikaze crash system which downed two planes.

Boeing of course, claims the design was perfect, the plane was perfectly built, and the crashes are all due to brown skin pilots. An explanation that has been accepted by the majority of Americans.

I actually like the Eugene Stoner I see in these youtube interviews.



I listened to four hours of them, and if you have a technical background, and you understand gun mechanisms to the level of Chin Vol IV Machine Gun, then you can see that the M16 and its cartridge were not fully developed, were in fact, rush jobs, back of the envelope items. Mr Stoner in one of the tapes, expresses his opinion about the M16 needing time to mature in service. I can tell you, based on what I read, the Secretary of Defense thought he was buying a fully developed weapon system, gun and cartridge. History shows that the AR15 that needed more troop, field trials, and then hardware and cartridge fixes. Which in fact, is what happened, but only after a sufficient number of good American boys died with jammed M16's in their hands. People believe in the Big Man theory of history, that is one Big Man moves the mountain all by himself sort of thing. And you see in the tapes the organization that Stoner worked in, it took teams of experts to work out issues that the mechanical designer did not know about. And I don't think those people were available to Stoner, as subsequent events have shown.

I was surprised to hear Stoner claim he designed the 223 cartridge. There is a contending claim to who designed the 223/5.56 cartridge. I read the 1971 Guns & Ammo article The 223 is here to stay by Robert Hutton. Robert Hutton was technical editor of Guns and Ammo magazine and must have been very wealthy as he owned a big piece of real estate in Topanga Canyon California. It was called Hutton’s Shooting Ranch. (probably worth billion’s now!) Hutton’s article documents how he developed the 223 round. If you have any sort of technical background, it is apparent he is an amateur and his cartridge represents what an amateur would do. He took an existing cartridge, (222 Remington) necked it up and down, blew the shoulder out, changed shoulder angles, he had a chronograph, got the velocity he wanted at distance. The crowning achievement in the article was punching holes in the wobble pot at 500 yards. That is about all the lethality testing Hutton did, punching holes in a helmet. Bob Hutton used the Powell Computer, a paper slide rule, to estimate pressures. He did not pressure test his cartridge he did not have pressure curve data. This cartridge was then adopted as the US service round.

Even with brass as a case material the 223 cartridge drags during extraction, as per 2003 DTIC document Understanding Extractor Lift in the M16 Family of Weapons. That tells me that the cartridge expansion and contraction dynamics were not modeled by Mr Stoner, or his company, and it surely was not by Mr Hutton.

And things have not gotten better when the case materials are changed to steel!.
 
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