Is Savage poised to take over Remington's

[R.W.Dale]

IS Savage poised to take over Remington's top spot in the world of precision bolt actions, tacticool and otherwise? I don't know about you but I've noticed the aftermarket support for the savage platform across the board has shot through the roof over the past couple years. Just recently Shilen started offering pre fit savage barrels and so far demand has been so high that they've had to add a second shift and are still running a 6 month lead time.

Everywhere I look nowadays it seems as though everybody has some sort of semi Custom savage project on the front burner. I attribute this to the fact that just about anything you could wish to do to a Rem700 requires a gunsmith VS being able to do everything to a Savage on your kitchen table. Sorta the same reason AR's are so popular MODULARITY.So then I'm left wondering what does a rem700 do better than a Savage........................nothing comes to mind

From a financial stand point all the KEWL design characteristics that make a Savage a DIYer's dream also makes them much cheaper to produce leaving big green in kind of a pickle. They need to cut costs to stay competitive in todays market (think $275 stevens) yet any changes to the 700 platform will result in a "new Coke" style rejection.

So what say YE? is the Savage 10/110 the Remington 700 for the new century? Or is it an also ran upstart.

 

[2TransAms]

So then I'm left wondering what does a rem700 do better than a Savage........................nothing comes to mind.

My Savage 10FP is as accurate as any Remington I've ever fired...cheaper too.

There are currently tons of aftermarket accessories for the 700,because the 700 is the king of the hill right now. That may be larglely due to the availability of 700's across the spectrum of hyper-tactical shadow-ops snipers to budget Walmart hunting rifles.

The Savage is for po' folks like me. I got the 10FP,put a stock from a BVSS on it,and called it good. (Btw,there are way more stocks available for Remingtons.) Nothing fancy,no upgrades,just a solid,accurate rifle with a great trigger from the factory. Speaking of which....

...yet any changes to the 700 platform will result in a "new Coke" style rejection.

Wasn't the X-Trigger Remington's way of competing with the popularity of the Accu-Trigger? Some people love it,and some people hate it.

 

[RevolverMan567]

nah

I dont think remington has anything to worry about from savage, both fine guns but each has their market, remington has remington customers and savage has the rest.

 

[Cron]

Hmmmm. If the Savage is so great, how come everybodys ordering the Shilen barrels?

Seriously, Savages are ugly and have terrible fitting/feeling stocks. At least I have some pride of ownership with the Remington.

 

[ArmedBear]

You're probably on to something.

The 700 was introduced at a point in history. It hasn't always existed or anything, and there's nothing magical about it. If a better option comes along, it will prevail.

Remington's ever-higher prices sure aren't helping, either.

remington has remington customers and savage has the rest.

I really wonder how long their name will be worth much. A lot of Remington customers haven't tried anything else. Custom builders tend to be well-informed.

 

[skinewmexico]

My Savage was great, and I ordered a Shilen barrel so I could have a 6.5X47 Lapua, so there, Mr. Smarty Pants. I have 5-6 Savages in obscure calibers, that you can't get in a Remington, and I didn't have to pay some gunsmith a ton to build. And even the ugly stocks shoot great, I'll take function over form, and substance over style any day. It's all about the holes downrange today, not the reputation of a company 35 years ago.

 

[ckay]

Hmmmm. If the Savage is so great, how come everybodys ordering the Shilen barrels?

For the same reason people are putting Noveskes on their AR-15 that they'll put 200 rounds through a year.

 

[texastony]

My wife has the Savage 16 WW in .308 with the accutrigger.
Her first hunting rifle. She is a friggin pro with it. I like it, but too lite for me. The trigger is AMAZING. Makes my M70 trigger feel like a sponge.
It does feel somewhat cheap with the composite stocks, but you get what you pay for, and she deffinately got more bang for her buck than I got for my 70. She likes hers more than mine. Whatever you shoot well is what counts.

I've never owned a Remmy. I won't say I never will, I just never held one that said "TAKE ME HOME NOW!!!", like all my other rifles.

 

[ArmedBear]

It's all about the holes downrange today, not the reputation of a company 35 years ago.

Sing it, brother!

(BTW who builds a serious custom rifle on a basic factory stock, anyway? Remington or Savage, it'll end up in the corner of the garage.)

 

[R.W.Dale]

If the Savage is so great, how come everybodys ordering the Shilen barrels?

OK order a Remington 700 with a Select Match 1-15" twist stainless bull barrel chambered for 7.62x39...........didn't think so.

Remember we're talking about rifles where accuracy is EVERYTHING. Not 2moa go shoot a buck in November 30-06 type guns

It's all about the holes downrange today, not the reputation of a company 35 years ago.

You pretty well summed up my OP! BRAVO

 

[dr0]

Interesting thread. I've never owned a Savage, but I might soon.

One thing I've heard in defense of the Remington is that it is a little sturdier.

I'm sorry I don't recall the place where I saw this discussed, but the point that was made was that the Remington had fewer small parts that were prone to failure. I believe the person saying this had seen a larger number of Savage failures in the course of long multi-day training at someplace like Gunsight or Thunder Ranch. Esentially this is heresay.

Do those of you with both credit this claim at all?

 

[Detritus]

Hmmmm. If the Savage is so great, how come everybodys ordering the Shilen barrels?

this wel covered already but to sum it up OPTIONS, with a savage, beyound the barrel itself, a caliber change requires a barrel nut wrench, headspace guage, and a little reading to learn how. and you can swap between calibers using the same bolt face in under 5 mins, include swapping bolt faces and you're at maybe 10 mins.

and not everyone is getting shilens either. some of the smiths that build customs on savage actions are selling the take off barrels, so a shooter might buy one complete rifle and 2 or 3 taken-off factory barrels in the other calibers they want to shoot.

Seriously, Savages are ugly and have terrible fitting/feeling stocks. At least I have some pride of ownership with the Remington.

trying to remember where is heard this but "three things to never insult, a man's wife, dog, or gun"

hmmmm yeah i guess some folks value looks over ability. not me

i'll answer to this by also answering what some were asking about, remington's answer to the Savage lineup is the 700 SPS line. they run around the same price as comparable Savages (that wretched 710 or whatever they renamed it after the re-design, was their answer to the stevens).
so ok for about the same price...
Both have rather middle of the road metal finish, stocks by bell&carlson that seem to be made of the same resin (same flexability issue), and both stocks are kinda ugly in their own way.
but
Savage all stocks pillar bedded
remington SPS No pillars, no bedding block
guess which is more stable (remember the SPS uses the same wimpy resin for stock as the savage, but no pillars)

i could go on and on but i doubt it'd do any good. comes down to
"how to make a highly accurate savage"= buy gun, start handloading and tailor your loads. maybe replace the stock for $200 or less if it bothers you.

"doing the above with a remington"= A.get a pre-built custom and pay as much for the gun as for your first car. B. buy off the rack 700, send to gunsmith for replacement trigger, blueprinting, maybe new stock depending on model, possibly a new barrel... oh wait we're up well over $1K at the minimum already and you haven't even fired round one to begin your load development....

everyone has their preferences, i like savage b/c they display out of the box accuaracy that allowed me to take a 12FV with a el-cheapo simmons target scope to an F-class shoot and keep up with some of the $3K+ custom jobs on the line.

 

[32winspl]

A couple of yrs ago, I bought a Rem 700 varmint synthetic 26" unfluted left hand 22-250 for about $650. It's accurate as heck with everything I've put through it so far. The trigger breaks clean "like a glass rod", a veery thick glass rod. Last fall, I shot a friend's Savage 26" fluted stainless .223 with the 2-piece trigger. It shot as well as mine, but the trigger was WONDERFUL. If or when I do it all over again, I'll prob go with the Savage, even tho I don't care for the looks of the fluted bbl, nor do I anticipate carrying one far enough or shoot fast enough to warrant the need for flutes (or whatever their reason for being).
Also, regardless of manufacturer, I wont buy a left hand bolt gun again (I am a lefty), as I'm more comfortable operating the bolt with my right hand, even while standing.

 

[gunsnmoses]

I'm curious

Can you really change out a savage barrel as a DIY job?
Does anyone keep more than 1 barrel for 1 savage and switch caliber back and forth?

 

[R.W.Dale]

Can you really change out a savage barrel as a DIY job?

YEP! all you really need is an special wrench, a vice and a headspace gauge.

Things you can change on a savage that requires a gunsmith for the Remington 700.

barrel

recoil lug

bolt handle

bolt face

A note on the bolt face. by swapping out bolt heads you can go from a .223 to a 300WSM and back again on the same action. With the Remington your gunsmith can open up the bolt face for larger cartridges but once done you can never go back.

 

[cmidkiff]

I have an old (pre-accutrigger) pencil barreled Savage in .22-250, made perhaps 20 years ago. It's a POS. Never been accurate, trigger sux... Never thought I'd buy another one.

About a year ago, I bought a 10fv in .204ruger, put a take-off BVSS stock on it for about $100, a Weaver KT15, and started working up some loads. This thing is a tack driver. Factory barrel, nothing done to the action, (I did put a benchrest single shot follower in it...) stock trigger... I love this rifle.

Picked up a 9317 (.17HMR) as a package deal, multi-color laminate stock, POS scope, heavy blue barrel. Tossed the simmons scope and replaced it with a Leopold 3-9x40. That's about all I've done with it, besides shoot it. This little rifle is about the most fun thing I can imagine, shooting at coin sized targets at 100 yards, clay pigeons laid out at 250... Great shooting rifle.

I can't imagine why you'd spend more on a Remington... I'm quite positive that my Savage .204 will shoot right along side rifles costing many times as much.

Ugly? Well, the barrel nut takes a little getting used to, I guess, but the advantages it gives for the home gunsmith are overwhelming!

I will say that the plastic stock they come with is absolute junk. If you're not planning on replacing it, spend a little more and get their factory laminate. I guess the plastic might be OK for a hunting rifle... it's light enough, anyway, but as a target rifle? You're never going to be happy with it.

 

[cmb3366]

Is Savage poised to take over the low end market? they already have. Will they ever take over the mid-high end hunting market, no, they're just too utilitarian and homely. Will they ever take over the extreme accuracy market, no, that sector is ruled by trued remington 700's, 40x's 722's, xp-100's, and more recently, dominated by custom actions such as Stolle, BAT, Neiska Bay, Stiller, Viper, Hall, and others..

Savage 110 derivatives make a fine entry level piece for target shooting, but the same things that make them great and affordable for an entry level shooter (barrel nut, accu-trigger, floating bolthead) become a liability when competing with smithed custom jobs, where the fixed bolthead mates perfectly with trued lugs, and the barrel is headspaced perfectly with well excecuted shoulder mating to a trued reciever ring, with trued threads, sporting a minimum-spec, tight, true chamber.

A Remington 700 can be made into a world class accuracy-orinented rifle, a Savage makes a fine local level, entry piece, and custom manufacurers make actions that outcompete trued 700's by giving the same accuracy potential, with greater resale values.

 

[MCgunner]

I'm a remington guy, though I have a savage. If savage takes 'em over, maybe they're finally get a 3 position safety out of the deal, at least, so long as a barrel nut doesn't go with it.

 

[R.W.Dale]

where the fixed bolthead mates perfectly with trued lugs, and the barrel is headspaced perfectly with well excecuted shoulder mating to a trued reciever ring, with trued threads, sporting a minimum-spec, tight, true chamber.

Why put that much trouble into maching on a 700 action what the aftermarket choices are vastly superior in every way/ if that kind of accuracy is your goal neither Savage or Remington is going to serve your needs with a factory action.

BUT other than the bolt head (which is debatable) if you desire you can do away with the barrel nut system and turn a shoulder on the bbl. There's no law saying you have to keep the barrel nut.

The Savage Barrel Nut--Advantages
Many gun builders will re-barrel a Savage without the barrel lock nut, by milling a shoulder on the barrel and mounting the barrel Remington-style. The only advantage to this is that it will let you fit a heavy-contour barrel with a diameter that is larger than the nut. The nut has several advantages, however. First the nut makes it much easier for the gun's owner to set headspace and switch barrels. Second, the barrel lock-nut provides a more solid thread joint and controls harmonics in a positive manner. I truly believe the barrel nut can enhance accuracy. In fact, I've made Remingtons shoot better by simply cutting back the shoulder and adding a nut.

read more here!
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek040.html

So again what does a Remington 700 do better?

 

[dr0]

Krochus - take a shot at addressing my post #11, please.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Krochus - take a shot at addressing my post #11, please.

I'm not buying it! any modern bolt action rifle Rem or Sav is about as reliable and robust as a cast iron skillet. I'm not saying that they don't break periodically but I have trouble believing that the .00276% failure rate is something to worry about. I'm literally more worried about being hit by a falling satellite than my bolt gun not functioning. It just strikes me as a NONissue

If what you posted were the case nobody would trust a semiautomatic with their life.

 

[YodaVader]

A lot of Remington customers haven't tried anything else

After reading stories of almost magical accuracy and the claims of outshooting custom match rifles costing thousands boasted by the Savage crowd I thought I might have to see for myself!

After owning four varmint/tactical style 700s I decided to try out a $599 (Aug 2006) Savage 12BVSS(.223) and unlike many here state , I find my Savage to be a nice looking rifle! Better looking than my current 700s - LTR and SPS.

The Accu-Trigger was very good for an out of the box rifle , I still had it replaced with a Sharp Shooter Supply unit. And the rifle can shoot really good groups. Unfortunately the barrel fouls so quickly I cannot get more than a few groups in a row. My 700LTR is consistently accurate for group after group and my best groups ever fired were with the 700.

Savage all stocks pillar bedded
remington SPS No pillars

True of the standard SPS and SPS Varmint but the SPS Tactical 700 does have a pillar bedded stock.
Still , the Savage pillar bedding is not the greatest thing since sliced bread. There is a small diameter flat top pillar mating with a rounded receiver. Looking at the contact impressions on top of the pillars of my 12BVSS it appears there is just a few thousandths contact. Some of those over at savageshooters forums even had the pillars below the bedding surface.

Can you really change out a savage barrel as a DIY job?

This is where Savage shines and one of the reasons I decided to try Savage. My 12BVSS will probably get something like a Lothar Walther Supermatch installed. Maybe sooner than later!

buy off the rack 700, send to gunsmith for replacement trigger, blueprinting, maybe new stock depending on model, possibly a new barrel... oh wait we're up well over $1K at the minimum already and you haven't even fired round one to begin your load development....

Bought a SPS at Dick's for $479 with $30 rebate , and a HS Precision stock from eBay for under $200. Not as pretty as my 12BVSS but shows every indication of shooting just as well , it's early on still , about 70 shots fired. Not nearly a grand spent and no trip to a gunsmith. If I had bought a 12FV or 10FP still would have spent the extra $200 for B&C Medalist and probably another SSS trigger.

Remington's ever-higher prices sure aren't helping, either.

No argument there , outside of the SPS series the 700s have risen in price dramatically. My local shop now has in more Savages than Remingtons. I asked why he did not carry many 700s and his reply was, "they are just too damn expensive!"

 

[Seafarer12]

I don't believe they are going to take remingtons spot just because remington makes a higher end gun. Savages are hard to argue with on the lower end market. I don't own one but have always liked them being a lefty. I mean they have the widest selection of leftys. If they would offer a heavy varmiter in a .243 in left hand I would probably have to think about getting one. I might get a 308 and just rebarrel it I don't know. Considering I just watched a lefty remington 788 go for 600 bucks on gunbroker I might have to let mine go and get something else.

 

[green-grizzly]

Unless they have changed recently, Savages are damned ugly. I hate to judge a book by its cover, but Savages just look cheap and cheezy. I acknoweldge that they are fine rifles, but they would sell more to shallow souls like myself if they looked like fine rifles.

 

[Ash]

Not looked at a 114 lately, it seems.

Ash