It used to be said by many, that the shotgun was the best close quarter weapon one could have for a firefight. Has this been replaced by the m4 style weapon? In places like Viet Nam, many guys ditched their rifles for shotguns, "more so in a unit scenario", but still they were quite popular for their ability to plow through anything in front of them should an attack unexpectedly occur. lately I don't see as many posts on sales of shotguns as even a few years ago. Have the AR/AK pistols and rifles changed the climate of laying down more firepower should the situation arise. Or are they just not spoken about as much. After watching the deals on "slickguns.com" for the past week, there are far less shotguns being offered "in the deals section" as pistols and rifles. Have perhaps new shooters not been educated as to what a good shotgun is capable of doing? I almost never hear of guys talking about shotguns like they used to.
Is the 12 gauge losing it's appeal as a defensive weapon
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In short, yes. If you're adept at running a shotgun and have a good one for the task, it's still quite potent, particularly for HD. However, it has more limitations (just as pistol caliber carbines do) that aren't present with a good modern rifle with proper ammo. Higher capacity, better range, lower recoil, better ergonomics, single projectile with better precision, etc. are all good reasons for the shift.
W.E.G.
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The shotgun was at its peak as a defensive weapon before there was an AR15 in every patrol car.
How many guns that require two hands to operate can you carry?
How much ammo for different types of guns?
How much time allotted for training?
The shotgun is every bit as effective now as it ever was.
The carbine is simply a better choice for the average front-line guy.
How many guns that require two hands to operate can you carry?
How much ammo for different types of guns?
How much time allotted for training?
The shotgun is every bit as effective now as it ever was.
The carbine is simply a better choice for the average front-line guy.
LeonCarr
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The carbine is a more versatile weapon with a much longer effective range and less recoil than the shotgun.
With that said, when the Shotgun is used for CQB or home defense, there is nothing better.
The shotgun will never lose its appeal with me. On the three occasions I have had to point 870Ps at bad guys, all of them immediately complied. One said, "I don't want none of that".
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
With that said, when the Shotgun is used for CQB or home defense, there is nothing better.
The shotgun will never lose its appeal with me. On the three occasions I have had to point 870Ps at bad guys, all of them immediately complied. One said, "I don't want none of that".
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
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d2wing
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For real close range and in the home I would take a 12 gauge any day. I think 12 gauges are more popular than ever. As a Vietnam vet, the stories of guys swapping M16 for a shotgun would be extremely rare. May have happened when the early M16 were having problems. They just don't let you carry what you want.
The only advantage a shotgun has ever had was the ability to improve hit probability on moving targets. Same as with a hunting shotgun. The terminal effectiveness has always been greatly exaggerated and reinforced by Hollywood in almost 100 years of film. While it can be an effective tool within a limited range it is never the best choice. At close range, inside 10-20 feet I'd just as soon have a handgun or lightweight carbine. No chance for a pattern big enough to help. At ranges farther than 20-30 yards I'd much prefer a rifle since the pattern starts to get a bit thin. You really need multiple hits to have much deterrence. You'd have to get lucky for 1-2 pellets to hit a vital spot.
Other factors that are killing off shotguns are mag capacity, overall weight, length and recoil. A load of buckshot generates 25-30 ft lbs (300 magnum levels) of recoil vs under 5 ft lbs for a 223. The only reason shotguns have held on as long as they have is price. And that gap is narrowing every year.
Other factors that are killing off shotguns are mag capacity, overall weight, length and recoil. A load of buckshot generates 25-30 ft lbs (300 magnum levels) of recoil vs under 5 ft lbs for a 223. The only reason shotguns have held on as long as they have is price. And that gap is narrowing every year.
bullseyebob47
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awaken by an intruder, i rather point a simple bead, pull the trigger and cover an intruder's face with a nice spread of #4 buck under 10 yards in the house. why the face? cause i don't know if they are wearing body armor. i have a couple #4 buck followed by 00.
i have other shotguns with flite control buckshot for up to 50 yards outside that i would take over a rifle.
i have other shotguns with flite control buckshot for up to 50 yards outside that i would take over a rifle.
tactikel
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I asked the same question of my carbine class instructor (SLPD, Swat). His answer was that an AR has 30 rounds, is compact and light, is quickly reloaded, hits hard, is a common platform familiar to many, and can engage threats from 1 to 600 meters. 
Deltaboy1984
Member
Not at my house the 12 still rules.
Cost. The reason shotguns hang around is they are cheap. One can have a very good defensive shotgun with a good light for under $300. A good AR is going to be hundreds of dollars more.
But to answer the OP, yes. M4 style guns are killing off both shotguns and sub guns for most uses and there is a reason for it. As one of my SWAT friends put it, "The only thing I use a shotgun for is breaching door."
Aside from other advantages mentioned above (weight, size, capacity, recoil) I'd also note that the AR has an easier manual of arms to become proficient with IMHO.
A shotgun can get it done but I think the AR is a better choice.
The 223 will pierce Kevlar vests, the 12 ga will not. Ditto helmets, of course. The AR can be suppressed effectively, the 12 ga cannot. Those who are so enamored of the 12 ga need to turn loose a round of buckshot in a small room some time, in the dark, without ear protection. 
The flash will ruin your night adapted vision for several minutes. The concussion is so bad that you will nearly drop the gun, too. You can keep them, I want no part of such a handicap.
The flash will ruin your night adapted vision for several minutes. The concussion is so bad that you will nearly drop the gun, too. You can keep them, I want no part of such a handicap.
Panzerschwein
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For the police officer or soldier, the answer is yes.
For the average home owner, in short NO.
A quality 12 gauge pump-action shotgun is the best long gun yet invented for the purpose of home defense. Shotguns are niche weapons, but in this niche... they work very, very well. This is JMHO, and I really don't have the space or time to list all the reasons why I feel this way.
For the average home owner, in short NO.
A quality 12 gauge pump-action shotgun is the best long gun yet invented for the purpose of home defense. Shotguns are niche weapons, but in this niche... they work very, very well. This is JMHO, and I really don't have the space or time to list all the reasons why I feel this way.
The pistol is better at home, because you most likely won't have the time to go and get a longarm. If you have all that time, why not just run up and break the intruder's neck? You can fire a lot of well placed pistol rds in the 10 seconds it will take to go get a longarm (and return). And that applies to the intruder, too. You wont be answering the door with shotgun in hand, cause it's likely to be the preacher or the FedEx guy, or a neighbor. Most of the time, you never have to fire, but you do have to point the gun at the bad guy. Pretty hard to do that when the 12 ga is in the bedroom, but you're on the back porch.
You can fire a lot of well placed pistol rds in the 10 seconds it will take to go get a longarm (and return). And that applies to the intruder, too. You wont be answering the door with shotgun in hand, cause it's likely to be the preacher or the FedEx guy, or a neighbor. Most of the time, you never have to fire, but you do have to point the gun at the bad guy. Pretty hard to do that when the 12 ga is in the bedroom, but you're on the back porch.horsemen61
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For me it has not lost its effectiveness at all it's still a lot of lead headed down range and my place ain't that big and for me it works.
MachIVshooter
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Carbine, yes. But handgun? Hell no! A dozen #1 buck pellets or a single slug is gonna be a lot more effective than any handgun, short of a .50AE/.500 S&W mag.
I have good shotguns to choose from, but my go-to long gun is a not-so-long 5.56 AR:
More compact/manageable, can be operated effectively with one hand, will defeat soft armor in the unlikely (but increasingly common) event that an invader is wearing.
Grunt
Member
I think for many the M4 is taking over a lot from the shotgun. It's light, simple to use, low recoil and there's not much thinking involved. Shotguns on the other hand have heavier recoil that intimidates many shooters for starters. I've had regular AR shooters try their hand at my Mosin Nagant and complain about recoil but having grown up shooting a lot of .30-06, I never seen it as very harsh. Same thing today when you have shooter used to AR levels of recoil and then hand them a 12 gauge with full power loads. It's intimidating and those shooters do use an M4 far more effectively. As for the thinking aspect, there is having to think about buck or slug, shoot one load one, working a pump (yeah, never got around to an auto shotgun here) and what not. Not hard but it does require a lot of devotion to your training time. On the other hand, the reputation the shotgun has as a fight stopper is a well earned one. 9 pellets per round is nothing to sneeze at nor is a 1 ounce slug. Follow up shots aren't as fast as a carbine but then again, I can't say I've ever heard much about a double tap from a shotgun!
Panzerschwein
member
Is that some kind of suppressor you have there? If not... I'll say a prayer for your hearing. At my local range someone brought in a 10-12" AR the other day and I was the unlucky guy in the lane right next to him. Muzzle brake kicked out white fireballs right into my face and the concussion was so severe my ears RANG with double hearing protection. I would NEVER even think about using such as short AR for home defense. It was just deafening and the muzzle flash was enough to light up his whole lane. I could only imagine touching that off inside a building at 2 AM. Now if the suppressor helps alleviate the noise, that's a different story.
Inebriated
Member
Losing its appeal? Absolutely not. Everyone I know who isn't really into guns owns a shotgun. Seriously, I'm scratching my head to think of someone who DOESN'T own a shotgun as their main long gun. I've got a few friends with AR's, mainly the ones who are actually into guns, but outside of them, it's all shotguns. So the appeal is there.
Now, whether the shotgun is the best tool for a job, that's an entirely different question. Personally, for MY job (defending my home), I'm not that caught up in having one gun over another. I like .223 and #1 Buck equally for use in homes, but I tend to keep 00 in the gun, since that's what I can buy in bulk and train with. Though, I have to be honest, an AR is next up on my short list, solely for HD. If I were on the streets as LEO, or in the desert as MIL, the shotgun wouldn't be high on my list of preferred long guns.
Now, whether the shotgun is the best tool for a job, that's an entirely different question. Personally, for MY job (defending my home), I'm not that caught up in having one gun over another. I like .223 and #1 Buck equally for use in homes, but I tend to keep 00 in the gun, since that's what I can buy in bulk and train with. Though, I have to be honest, an AR is next up on my short list, solely for HD. If I were on the streets as LEO, or in the desert as MIL, the shotgun wouldn't be high on my list of preferred long guns.
plateshooter
Member
With an AR, you have to hit what your shooting at, with a shotgun, you only have to shoot a couple shots up into the air according to Biden.
gamestalker
member
Even though I have an AR's, and an AK, I keep a short barreled 870 next to me when sleeping, along with a snub .357 under my pillow. I figure if I wake from a dead sleep to find the bad guy in my home, my best bet in that sleepy state of mind is going to be my scatter gun. I can't imagine someone getting up off the floor after taking a 3" load of #4 buck, with 00 buck next in line, and finally 6 or 7 shells in will be one or two HP slugs.
But I don't really feel the shotgun has lost any of it's reputation as a good first response home defense weapon, nor has anyone put it in a class of being under powered for such. The primary reason I think many are hearing less about SG's, is because traditional AR type rifles are becoming more and more threatened by gun control laws aimed at banning them.
GS
But I don't really feel the shotgun has lost any of it's reputation as a good first response home defense weapon, nor has anyone put it in a class of being under powered for such. The primary reason I think many are hearing less about SG's, is because traditional AR type rifles are becoming more and more threatened by gun control laws aimed at banning them.
GS
Jason_W
Member
All I really own are shotguns right now. They do every job there is to do and do it adequately (except 100+ yard work, of course).
With one shotgun, an extra barrel or two, and the right load I can, have fun shooting all manner of targets, take small game without obliterating it (try salvaging meat of a grouse hit with a 5.56 round) take small game out to 100 yards or even a little farther with a rifled barrel, and defend my home.
The shotgun is the leatherman tool of guns. What's not to like about that?
With one shotgun, an extra barrel or two, and the right load I can, have fun shooting all manner of targets, take small game without obliterating it (try salvaging meat of a grouse hit with a 5.56 round) take small game out to 100 yards or even a little farther with a rifled barrel, and defend my home.
The shotgun is the leatherman tool of guns. What's not to like about that?
Ash
Member
I prefer a shotgun for that reason (plus, I might need to also kill an armadillo or a rabid racoon). As to recoil, when it really matters, you don't feel recoil. I can fire off three rounds of 3 inch magnums against a flight of ducks, take down two or three, and never feel either the rounds or even remember pumping the action. The sounds is like a muffled sock even. Ditto for rabbit hunting.
Also, it still is easier to hit with a shotgun. Nobody hunts rabbit with a .223 (except for the anecdote that WILL arrive pretty quick). A running rabbit is a tough hit with a rifle (I tried once with a .22lr) but not hard with a shotgun.
Those are hunting, true, but the same applies to defense of a home.
Also, it still is easier to hit with a shotgun. Nobody hunts rabbit with a .223 (except for the anecdote that WILL arrive pretty quick). A running rabbit is a tough hit with a rifle (I tried once with a .22lr) but not hard with a shotgun.
Those are hunting, true, but the same applies to defense of a home.
Gun Geezer
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My thoughts for HD:
I live on a little 5 acre wooded spot with lots of other houses on similar 5 to 10 acres lots. From my front porch I can see 3 other houses. Nice area.
My thought is that both 12 gauge #1 buck and a 5.56 would get the job done on a bad guy, but the 12 gauge is much less likely to kill a neighbor in his driveway or my kid in another room.
The only concern I have with a shotgun is the limited number of rounds in the mag. But really, how many times does anybody 30 rounds in self defense?
I live on a little 5 acre wooded spot with lots of other houses on similar 5 to 10 acres lots. From my front porch I can see 3 other houses. Nice area.
My thought is that both 12 gauge #1 buck and a 5.56 would get the job done on a bad guy, but the 12 gauge is much less likely to kill a neighbor in his driveway or my kid in another room.
The only concern I have with a shotgun is the limited number of rounds in the mag. But really, how many times does anybody 30 rounds in self defense?
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