Is the 1911 a Reliable Design?

[AABEN]

Where have you been for the last 100??????

 

[PT92]

Not to take the OP thread 'entirely' off-topic, but when it comes to the 'capacity' debate which at times can be almost as heated as the perpetual 'Caliber War,' another selling point for the 1911 is that it's that 'happy-medium' for round-count if you will. Those that say the revolver is lacking and, conversely, those that say the hi-capacity 9/40's are overkill can settle on the 'in-between' capacity of a 1911. Sounds logical to me...

-Cheers

 

[mavracer]

If your gonna lump everything with a link and cut round lugs in when discussing just how reliable the 1911 design is when compared to Sigs and Glocks linkless square cut locking lugs don't we need to include all the Taurus and Kel-tecs in with that bunch?
And Hi-Point is a modern polymer framed striker fired gun shouldn't their durability be concidered right along with the other modern guns?

 

[tomrkba]

Too much emotion, not enough logic

Just because it is your favorite gun does not mean the 1911 "is a reliable design". I believe it to be a rather poor design that needs improvement. People continue to use Windows; just because it's popular and has been around awhile does not change the drawbacks of the design. This does not mean that the 1911 cannot be made to function properly. Doing so requires the attention of a qualified gunsmith at the factory. Modern factory equipment can eliminate some of the variation that must be corrected.

The 1911 requires correct maintenance on a schedule. Again, this is not bad by itself. However, if the user does not do the work, then the gun will begin to fail to perform. The issue is how much work is required over time. Some designs require less maintenance over the same period. All require maintenance regardless of design.

This is the whole point Hilton Yam has been trying to make. The 1911 can be made to work if the manufacturer produces a correct gun. If the manufacturer does not make a correct gun, then a gunsmith will have to correct those deficiencies.* It is the shooter's responsibility to perform the maintenance to ensure it continues to work.


* Michael Bane comments about this frequently. He talks about the 70's where every new Colt gun had to be immediately sent to a gunsmith to be made functional.

 

[ugaarguy]

I believe it to be a rather poor design that needs improvement.

You can believe what you want to believe. So called 1911s start having problems when manufacturers and / or wanna be gunsmiths start trying to "improve" them. But that horse has already been beat to death in this thread.

Michael Bane comments about this frequently. He talks about the 70's where every new Colt gun had to be immediately sent to a gunsmith to be made functional.

Also been beaten to death in previous posts here. Colt wasn't making their own gun correctly in the 70s, and they had problems - or so I'm told by folks I know and trust. And the 70's ended over 30 years ago.

 

[tomrkba]

You can believe what you want to believe. So called 1911s start having problems when manufacturers and / or wanna be gunsmiths start trying to "improve" them. But that horse has already been beat to death in this thread.

See above: too much emotion, not enough logic!

Did you even read the rest of the post?

I am not saying I don't like 1911's. It's a complicated design that includes extra factors to get a cartridge into and out of the chamber. The gun is not going to go away. I plan upon getting another Colt XSE or one of their Rail Guns.

But, you need to separate emotion from the argument.

 

[mavracer]

I am not saying I don't like 1911's. It's a complicated design that includes extra factors to get a cartridge into and out of the chamber.

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[918v]

Having owned eight 1911s from Springfield MilSpecs to Custom Shop Professionals, including Colts and a Ruger, and not having any malfunctions, I can say that the 1911 is a reliable design across the board.

Guns, unlike toasters, are not and should not be treated like consumer items. They are tools for skilled individuals with a moderate amount of mechanical aptitude. If you want a 100% reliable weapon that even a retarded monkey can effectively wield, get a knife. If people can't figure out why their 3rd world slave labor 1911s are not running 100% with their crappy out of spec reloads, gun ownership is not for them.

 

[918v]

But I lied when I said that there's a reason cops and soldiers no longer carry them on duty. Because actually, there's more like 10.

Last year I was in Long Beach, CA and called LBPD. Eight officers responded. Seven were packing 1911s.

The reason cops generally don't carry 1911s is the same reason they don't ride around in Mercedes patrol cars.

 

[1911Tuner]

The 1911 can be made to work if the manufacturer produces a correct gun.

Yes. I think I made that point three pages ago. "If it's built to correct specs and fed decent ammunition from proper magazines, it'll run. It doesn't have a choice.

The 1911 requires correct maintenance on a schedule. Again, this is not bad by itself. However, if the user does not do the work, then the gun will begin to fail to perform.

As it is with any machine. With the 1911, it's mostly a matter of keeping it reasonably clean and adding a drop of oil here and there.

This is the whole point Hilton Yam has been trying to make.

I heard that Yam changes extractors every 5,000 rounds. I shot him a PM and told him I'd give him 5 bucks apiece for all those "bad" extractors that he pulled, and offered to pay shipping. He never responded, and I think he banned me.

If people can't figure out why their 3rd world slave labor 1911s are not running 100% with their crappy out of spec reloads, gun ownership is not for them.

Well...ya get what ya pay for. That which is cheap can be very expensive...or so I've heard.

And we're back to square one. "If it's built to spec, it'll run. It's a machine. It doesn't have a choice."

Most of the time, the problem is with the magazine. Wish I had a dollar for every Jammin' Jenny that I've "fixed" by handing the owner a few good magazines.

 

[Hangingrock]

As I’ve stated previously issued a 1911A1 with three magazines for a total of 21 rounds your primary job is not to be a shooter. Those of us issued such soon realized the 1911A1 had to be supplemented with something better (Rifle or shotgun).

During the time period of the M14 being in general issue the 1st Marine Div issued M1 carbines in lieu of 1911A1 pistols for MOS designated Officers and NCO’s if memory serves me correctly.

Is it reliable? One respondent pointed out that the “The Marines are even in the process of adopting the 1911 series pistol again (did it ever go away really as it was in limited usage by designated units) in the form of the M45 Close Quarters Combat Pistol, which will be issued on a limited basis. You betcha the M45-CQCP is only going to be issued to Special Operations personnel and these people in one training cycle would fire more ammunition than a Marine issued an M9 fires in their entire enlistment period. If nothing else Marine armories have a long established methodology of keeping 1911 series pistols operational. With out the armories care and attention I doubt 1911 series could keep on running in other words a high maintenance item.

My mother’s uncle served in the AEF during WW1 in France. He lost the lower half of his right arm due to wounds and was also gassed. I wonder what he would think of the 1911 series still being in limited service today. As his issued side arm was a 1911.

Family story as told to me: his 1911 failed to fire thus allowing his advisory to slash his arm with bayonet. He struggled choking his advisory to death. He was stranded in no-man’s-land for sustained period of time with an unattended wound that became infected and during that period exposed to mustard gas. (His service record stipulates the lower arm amputation due to infection and that he was exposed to mustard gas)As for the 1911 failure to fire don’t know the truth of the matter but that’s the story.

 

[1911Tuner]

With out the armories care and attention I doubt 1911 series could keep on running in other words a high maintenance item.

I haven't found the 1911 to be a high maintenance item at all, and I've run'em long, hard, hot and dirty. As I said earlier...Keep it reasonably clean and put a little oil in the rails from time to time.

The MEUSOC personnel have been firing upward of 30,000 rounds annually in practice. I daresay that anything shot that much will need the attention of the unit armorer at some point.

Family story as told to me:

I love the stories from both world wars. Both my grandfathers were veterans of WW1, and my father and uncles of WW2...but the implication that the 1911 is an unreliable design based on one reported failure...and in the mud-filled trenches of France especially...is a bit of a stretch. All sorts of weapons will fail under those conditions...and a large number of them functioned under those same conditions. Some of those guys swore by their pistols...including both my grandfathers.

Remember what Gunny told ya.

"Expect your weapon to malfunction."

 

[918v]

If Glock were forced to build millions of guns in the middle of two world wars, I'm sure they would be just as reliable as the 1911. As it stands, Glock only has to deal with an occasional KB or two... maybe a torn frame rail or this:

 

[EddieNFL]

I believe it to be a rather poor design that needs improvement.

I've read lots of stuff on the internet, too.

 

[mesonsdad]

OK - there ARE some inherent problems with the Colt .45 1911; that said, there are numerous after-market enhancements that really make this very fine weapon much more effective and efficient. Ambidextrous safety, for one. Magna-porting, perhaps...of course, trigger work is always a plus...the bottom line - a 250 grain slug traveling at nearly 1000 fps is formidable and worthy of it's legendary status. Further, it is very difficult for me to recognize the "superiority" of the "wunder-guns" and their DAO, DA-SA, or whatever configurations in comparison to the smooth, single action reliability of the 1911. Condition-One for any GUN!!

 

[orionengnr]

I have owned almost 30 1911s, and have had good luck with some.

I have not had the best of luck with Colt 1911s (three so far).
So they are off my list.

 

[PT92]

When I reached 'the big 4 O' a few years back I finally accepted that there will never be unanimous consensus on anything be it tangible (1911) or intangible (religion for example). Even where COMPLETE consensus would/should be expected (perhaps mandatory), it's still sometimes subject to debate? Case and point, there are actually people who find something wrong with 'The Goddess' Salma Heyak for goodness sake (!Que Caramba!) so how in the world am I to expect unanimity concerning Mr. Browning's Gem...? The 1911 to me is analogous to Salma Heyak but for some, apparently it's analogous to 'Rosie O'Donnell' (pardon me but I just threw-up a little bit )...

 

[Byrd666]

Umm, YES

 

[ugaarguy]

Did you even read the rest of the post?

Read the whole thing.

See above: too much emotion, not enough logic!

Resorting to personal attacks is verboten here. Tone it down please.

You want logic? Here's my logic: The below 1911s were all switched to GI style short guide rods & spring caps if not so equipped from the factory, but otherwise they were unmodified unless noted.

SA GI - Ran anything I fed it.

SIG GSR - Only thing it would run was 185 gr LSWC - wouldn't even run 230 gr ball.

Colt XSE LW Commander - 80 Series FP block broke, but it ran fine one I took all the 80 series crap out.

SA Loaded base parkerized - ran anything I fed it.

Kimber pre-Series II - ran everything I fed it.

DW RZ-10 - Ran everything I fed it.

SA full size LW Operator - even with the ramped bbl it ran anything I fed it.

Colt Delta Elite - preemptively converted to non 80 series, converted to single recoil spring with heavy main spring and oversize FP stop to deal with 10mm recoil better than the over sprung dual recoil spring setup, per Tuner and BBBill's recommendation - ran everything I fed it.

Newest is a Colt Wiley Clapp 21st Century commander. In less than a week it's run 200 rounds of 230 ball ammo of various manufacture, 50 rounds of Federal HST 230 gr +P, and 16 rounds of 230 gr Speer Gold Dot. I've done nothing to it other than clean and lube after unboxing, and clean & lube after a couple of range trips.

Notice that the "Improved" guns were the ones that had problems. The pistols that were/are internally closest to GI spec ran/run best, and the XSE converted back to get it nearly GI spec internally had no problems thereafter; and the SIG GSR, which was a supposedly "improved" 1911, and deviated furthest from the GI spec, was the one with the most problems.

 

[Hangingrock]

A 1911A1 story of note from Viet-Nam a Marine officer wounded to the extent of suffering paralysis of his legs was dragged out of danger by his radioman. While being dragged he emptied his pistol at the enemy. After being evacuated and hospitalized he regained use of his legs one of the more inspiring stories. That’s the factual information.

Another version of the story but unsubstantiated is that officer used the radioman’s 1911A1 also and was firing both pistols simultaneously while being dragged out of danger.

 

[coolluke01]

I don't think anyone will question the reliability of the generation that fought in the wars with the 1911.

A legendary weapon in a legendary area.

The above story is case in point.

Complex often means less reliable. Not always but it lends to more opportunity for things to go wrong.
While many may see it as a sufficiently reliable option, I do think most would recognize that there are simpler and more reliable options.

1911's are great but maybe not the best when it comes to being the most reliable.

 

[1911Tuner]

1911's are great but maybe not the best when it comes to being the most reliable.

My experience over the last 50 years doesn't mirror that. The problems are with the more recent execution of the design...not in the design itself. 95% of my work with the 1911 has been with functional reliability...or tuning if you prefer. Hence the username.

I started with the 1911 pistol in 1962, and actually wrenching on them in 1965. I wouldn't be afraid to estimate that I've put something over 3/4 million rounds through various 1911 pistols and their clones and variants in the years since. In the day, GI surplus ammunition was so cheap that nobody bothered to pick up the brass for reloading.

When the stories about "jamming" and what-not began to surface, I was puzzled, and when I started to actually see these malfunctions first-hand, I was determined to figure out why they were misbehaving.

I found out.

The preponderance of delinquent pistols that I've tended to were "dinked" with. Whenever I returned them as nearly as I could to un-dinked condition...most of them rewarded my efforts by settling down and running. Others had been over-dinked, usually with mirror polished feed ramps and hogged-out barrel ramps done in the effort to compensate for ruining the feed ramps. Magazines were very often at the root of the problems, and using a proper magazine generally resulted in a pistol that was boringly reliable.

With the others, careful investigation and measuring revealed that the pistols were hopelessly out of spec in critical areas, the most common being in the feedway...frame and barrel ramps. There are other more subtle specs that most people don't even consider. The oversquare breechface being one of these. That 89'8" angle is important, and the prints allow no tolerance...which means that it's critical. Whenever a 1911 pistol intermittently misfeeds, it's one of the first things that I check. As often as not, it's 90 degrees...and it's not supposed to be.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

Shooting action pistol type events you see every type of gun used jam. One shooter uses nothing but Glocks - he's had feed problems during matches as well as running trouble free. My wife shoots an XDm - it refused to reset the trigger this past weekend because it got sand wedged between the trigger transfer bar and the frame.

The majority of people where I shoot use 1911 and 2011 style guns, and generally run the matches trouble free. I have SIGS, HKs, and 1911s - if you shoot enough - you will have a problem. The worst malfunction I ever had was with a S&W model 25-5 - so I'm not naive enough to believe revolvers always run 100% either.

The 1911 is a 100 year old design. It doesn't work like modern pistols designed for assembly line manufacture. If you don't want to put the effort in to make a 1911 run reliably - don't get one. If you have a correctly built gun, run good magazines, and do very simple things in preventive maintenance - you can run as trouble free as any other design. You just have to accept going in - they take a bit more work to ensure reliability. What that means is PM on lube, springs (including magazine springs), checking magazine feed lips on older magazines, etc.

You don't want to do that - don't buy a 1911. If you do buy one and don't put the work in that it needs - that's your fault if it doesn't run, not the guns's.

 

[1911Tuner]

You just have to accept going in - they take a bit more work to ensure reliability.

And again...that doesn't mirror my own experience with the pistol. Cleaning...spring replacement when needed...proper magazines, etc, is normal maintenance and tossing damaged or out of spec parts doesn't really qualify as "work." Those same things apply to any weapon system or platform and any machine that is put to use. Use it enough, and something will break or wear out eventually. Even a broadhead ax will require sharpening if it's used.

 

[Byrd666]

1911 Tuner

Your post on # 147 was nicely re-educational. I remember the "Armorer"/ Gunners Mate explaining just that to me years ago after I was having problems with my 965th, , hand service pistol. Way back when the 1911 was still standard issue, of course.