Is the .38 snub enough gun?

[MCgunner]

I am more confident that it is, now. Yesterday, I went and sat in my deer stand. No movement, but when I got down I went and checked my hog trap and had 3 nice eatin' hogs in it, two about 100 lb sows and a 75 lber. So, not wanting to shoot 'em with the rifle at point blank, I whipped out the old Taurus 2" ultralite in .38 special. From about 10 feet, I placed one round in each hog in the top of the head.

I'm butchering some today and noticed on one, the 140 grain Remington JHP bullet loaded to about 950 fps penetrated through the head, down the neck, and out the brisket with total penetration and a very large exit wound. Absolutely no problems with bullet expansion OR penetration. I measure about 14" from point of bullet entry to exit and through mostly tough neck muscle.

I feel even more now that the .357 magnum may be retched excess and that the .38 +P of 140 or 158 grains can do the job admirably.

Any opposing opinions out there? I tell ya what, I know a brain hit don't count far as comparing to a gunfight torso hit, but it sure took the fight outta them hogs. Of course, I've shot 'em in the head with a .22 before and killed 'em. I was just impressed at the amount of penetration and expansion I got on the one that went on through the neck. The exit wound was pretty amazing.

 

[19-3Ben]

Exactly as you said. this was hardly an appropriate test to see what a chest hit on a deterined attacker would do.
Tell me more when you hit the piggies from the side, in the chest next time.

 

[wcwhitey]

I was always under the impression that the reason the .38 got a poor reputation was the 158 RNL at 800+ fps. SWC's and JHP's at over 900 fps have changed the whole equation. I am confident with mine. I have in two situations used my Model 10 2" as a finishing gun on deer, one shot was all it took, never did an autopsy though. On my department before the adoption of the 9mm in '93 everyone used 4" and 2" .38s on and off duty. The round was the Federal Nyclad 158 SWCHP +P. Having personally witnessed several shootings with them I can tell you they did their job well. I am grandfathered in with the off-duty .38 and have no plans on giving it up. Bill

 

[MCgunner]

Yeah, the old lead round nose was pathetic. With modern bullets, just the FBI load really, the .38 had a good street rep. As for shooting hogs in the shoulder, wastes too much meat. I trap 'em for the table. I cut around that neck for grinding and stew meat. It didn't really blood shot anything except around the exit wound. The other two entered the head and exited the throat. I've never fired a round into paper or jellow or anything. I've shot deer behind the shoulder with a 158 grain SWC from a .357 and examined 'em before, but never shot anything other than rabbits with .38 and that was with wadcutters. This is just the first observation I've ever had of what a JHP will do from a .38 snub. It was not intended to be scientific, just an observation in the field. Besides, I think a lot of "science" when it comes to wound ballistics and shooting sides of beef, especially done by medical doctors, is pretty bogus. What I observe first hand in the field, frankly, has more effect on my confidence in a caliber than what I read. If what I read jives with personal field experience, I'll give it more clout.

Since I don't and won't hunt with the .38 special, this observation is one of the few I've made in the field on animals. I'm not going to shoot a caged animal anywhere but in the skull. I'm not going to risk making an animal suffer a few seconds longer just for a personal experiment. I'm not a scientist even though I do live close to a Holiday Inn.

 

[wnycollector]

Nice post MCgunner! I think a well placed 140-158gr JHP or two should take the fight out of most bad guys in most situations. Personally, I would rather have a airweight .38 in my hand than nothing!!!

 

[Walkalong]

Yes, yes it is.

 

[Jim March]

There's about ten or so factory defense loads I'd feel comfy with in a snubby. Of those, four are hot enough (Cor-Bon and Buffalo Bore) that I wouldn't want to use them in my "strength challenged" vintage Charter Arms Undercover.

The remaining ones include the Winchester 130gr Supreme JHP, Buffalo Bore's 158gr standard pressure lead hollowpoint, Remington's 158+P lead hollowpoint, Speer's 135+P JHP.

With the right ammo, yeah, the snubbie will git'r'done.

 

[P. Plainsman]

Mas Ayoob once did an experiment like MCGunner's, administering finishing shots to cows at a slaughterhouse. Said the .380 ACP gave dubious results, while the lead 158 gr .38+P from a 2" snubby put 'em right down, and the bullet was usually found completely expanded on the far side interior of the cattle skulls.

38 Special +P snubbie ammo has improved to the point where I don't stress too much about stopping power relative to other common defensive handgun calibers, as long as one sticks to the best snub fodder. You're always going to need shot placement.

The downsides of the snub revolver are shootability (definitely requires more practice than the small semi-auto) and ammo capacity. Still, it's what I pack. Lot of power in a light, pocketable, and reliable package.

If I stepped up to belt carry, I'd probably go with a compact semi-auto in 9mm or .40 for urban settings, and for woods carry, a compact .357 Magnum like my SP101 with "stomper" loads. (The SP101 is pocketable, but not with the same ease and discretion as an airweight snub.)

 

[TOADMAN]

With the above mentioned ammo, no worries..

 

[Jim March]

For the record, the "wild child" 38+P that I consider too strong for MY GUN (vintage Charter 38) are the Buffalo Bore 38+Ps and the Cor-Bon +Ps.

Understand that the vintage Charters have unique issues, different from most anything else 'cept for maybe older Colt Dick Specials. I won't go into that here in detail. Don't follow what I'd doing TOO closely, on that account. Basically...any decent snubbie of 19oz or more can handle all factory 38+P stuff, at least in moderation.

Ultralights have their own issues - not necessarily strength related, but "bullet yanking" due to recoil, and should avoid the pure lead rounds.

That leaves the Speer 135+P as king of the hill I think, and the NYPD took that view too - that load was chosen as backup/off-duty ammo because a lot of the backup guns were ultralights incompatible with the lead 158s.

--

Snubbies work, but be picky about ammo. Once you get into the 357, ammo selection isn't as crucial, which is also the case with the 40S&W and 45ACP/LC.

 

[mavracer]

just one question what times breakfast?
hey gunner nice results, I assure you if you do your job your tauri and the 38 special will do theirs.

 

[glockman19]

I feel even more now that the .357 magnum may be retched excess and that the .38 +P of 140 or 158 grains can do the job admirably.

My main carry is a S&W 642/442. It is good to hear your results. I'm confident they will do the job when called upon. The advancement in ammunition from bullet to powder to primer & Casing is not grandpa's round or yester-year.

BTW are you makin' Bacn', Chops or susage?

 

[SeanSw]

It is always good to hear about a positive real life account of the humble .38. Pigs have gotta be closer in anatomy to humans than many of the animals we hunt, so I consider it a good judge of load effectiveness. I know that your ammunition was handloaded but there cannot be many factory ammo choices that duplicate a 140gr pill at 950fps from a 2" barrel. That sounds like good medicine from a snubbie.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

MCgunner,
Thank you for the information. Real world observations are a lot more important than tests in Jello IMO. Since I carry a J frame this was very interesting for me.
Thanks again...

 

[MCgunner]

Hey, no problem. I was pretty impressed by it, myself, especially the expansion and exit wound. It was no high powered rifle wound, but pretty impressive for any handgun, let alone a snubby .38. The exit hole was about 1 to 1 1/2" roughly diameter. That Remington bullet is accurate in my gun and it's got a lot more lead and more impressive hollow cavity than the Speer bullets I alternatively load. Plus, the Remington bullets are cheaper in bulk from Midway.

BTW are you makin' Bacn', Chops or susage?

I just got through butchering. Kept the hams whole for smoking, the ribs for the BBQ, got the shanks wrapped and have the option of grinding 'em or using 'em for stew. Got several large freezer bags full of grinding meat and some stew meat wrapped, so I can make some sausage when the time comes. We ate a back strap tonight, chicken fried with brown gravy. Yum. I gotta admit I'd rather have venison back strap, but it was good.

I'm going to hang on to the grinding meat and if I score a deer, I'll mix it 40% deer, 60% pork. I'm down to a couple of packages of venison sausage from last year and, of course, being a cheap SOB when I have to BUY pork, I mixed it 60% venison and it's pretty dry. I really prefer the 40/60 mix. These hogs had some fat on 'em, however, they're pretty lean compared to a store bought fattened pig. I might add some bacon pieces to it for the fat.

 

[dgray64]

Great info!! I just bought a used Taurus Mod 65 with 4" barrel and have wondered about it's shooting capability compared to a 9mm semi-auto. You answered that question and I learned about the best SD round to use. Thanks again.

Dave

 

[RevolvingCylinder]

Contrary to popular belief, I've found you can squeeze decent performance out of the "outdated" .38 Special without even going +P with the right load. Far in excess of the .380ACP(I often hear people spew that .38Spl=.380ACP).

 

[RON in PA]

I think that among other things you've demonstrated the positive effects of good bullet placement and good penetration.

 

[wcwhitey]

Jim March, one quick correction. The NYPD has never authorized an airweight or alloy frame revolver for backup or off duty. Old school was Detective Specials, Model 10's, Model 36's with very few still in service. What is left and authorized are S&W 640's (.38), SP101's (.38) and a few 2" 64 NYPD-1's. I only wish I could carry an airweight. The reason for the 135 grainers was that the only revolvers left tend to be 2", very, very few 4" revolvers left. The 2" revolvers are coveted and anyone like myself who wears one out beyond basic repair has to make the switch to a semi, cannot be replaced. Since about 2000 all new off duty/second weapons are smaller dimension 9's. Bill

 

[MCgunner]

Contrary to popular belief, I've found you can squeeze decent performance out of the "outdated" .38 Special without even going +P with the right load. Far in excess of the .380ACP(I often hear people spew that .38Spl=.380ACP).

Yeah, I hear that a lot and the .380 is roughly similar in energy, about 200 ft lbs. But, you're pushin' a little 88 grain pill, typically, and it just doesn't have the necessary penetration AND expansion at the same time. 200 ft lbs ain't gonna kill by energy. You're relying on the crush cavity. You can argue that point with hot rounds like 10mm or .357 perhaps, but certainly not with rounds of such low energy. So, you need penetration to do the job and the heavier .38s penetrate where the .380 is quite marginal. I hardly ever carry my .380, just when I HAVE to be discrete and even an airweight .38 is too much and that ain't very often. Really, my little Taurus or a 642 Smith ain't hard to carry even in everyday dress if you pick pants with decent sized pockets.

I cast a 105 grain SWC in .38. I'd gotten the mold for a .357 Rossi carbine I'd bought and worked up a load that approximates .22 mag energies out of that rifle. It's light enough for small game and the bullet turned out to be really accurate in the rifle and in my revolvers. I got to sizing it down to .356 and loading it in my 9s and then I loaded it in .380 and worked up a round that makes about 220 ft lbs out of a 3" .380 barrel, about as hot as I wanna go with a blowback. If I'd get off my lazy butt, I'd test it against the .38s for penetration in wet newsprint. It might be the way to go in .380. It won't expand, but should penetrate and the flat nose profile should better disrupt tissue than a FMJ, my thinking anyway. Still, I don't think there's a way to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. But, if I have to tote the .380, be nice to have a little better performance than with your typical FMJ or factory hollow point.

That's all JMHO on the .380, ain't lookin't to start any arguments. I'm a revolver guy anyway have a little 9mm Kel Tec that totes as easy as my revolver and is 100 percent and accurate and 410 ft lbs powerful, I just like totin' a revolver, always will. I'm a good, practiced DA shot and do well with snubbies and I don't see that I actually NEED 13 rounds of firepower for personal self defense. I have been looking at other J frames lately to add to my collection. Found a nice Smith M66 at a gun shop the other day, too, with 2 1/2" barrel for $385, sure thinkin' hard about THAT one. I'm just an incurable revolver fanatic I guess.

 

[Lone Star]

Did you actually chronograph that 140 grain JHP at 950 FPS from a snub? ??

Anyway, it worked, and your results are very interesting, particularly for someone who might have to shoot a pig defensively.

Please note that "retched" has a "w" in front: "wretched."

Fascinating post! I love it! Thanks for sharing.

Plainsman-

Ayoob tested those guns on pigs, not cattle. I asked him about that once, and he confirmed that he had definitely rather have a .38 than a .380.

Lone Star

 

[MCgunner]

Yeah, wretched, I thought it looked funny.

Yeah, I didn't look up in my range notes, was somewhere just short of 950, all shots over 900 IIRC, and had a somewhat high standard deviation. I could look it up, but I'm lazy. But, yeah, I have owned a Shooting Chrony since they came out in the 80s.

I tried blue dot thinking I could tighten up the extreme spread/SD, but Blue Dot didn't work well in the hot loads, wound up using 2400 which doesn't burn that consistently at these low pressures, but seems to be the best I've tried. I've never delved into 296 or other powders that burn slow. Since developing that load, I have acquired some AA#9. It works well with a 180 grain bullet at .357 pressures. Not sure how it works with a 140 grain bullet at .38 pressures, but I probably ought to try that so long as I have some anyway.

I tried the three appropriate pistol powders I had on hand at the time when I worked up this load, 2400, Blue Dot, and Unique. I got best results with no pressure signs from the 2400. Unique is just too fast. I can get consistent loads, but run into pressure before I get much over 220 ft lbs with it. I do load it behind a 158 grain bullet to about 220 ft lbs out of a 2" barrel, don't recall the velocity, just the energy. Again, it's written down in my notes and I'm lazy.

 

[redneckrepairs]

The .38 special is imho a lot like the 30-06 in that its an old round that just works , and works well with a proper hit . It aint new , it aint sexy but you are not under armed with one . My experience using the caliber to dispatch cattle and horses is that with a good hit it works , with a bad hit nothing works .

 

[Slamfire]

Heck, with head shots, most anything that rattles around in the brain cavity would cause a quick death. But I think an important thing, is that you had a 38 Spl with you. In my opinion, the 38 Snubbies provide the smallest acceptable self defense package around. Those little snubbies will fit into your pocket, are easy to carry, and have a sharp, but not uncontrollable recoil.

Good to hear that the bullet performed well. I carry hydrashocks and starfires, just hope they will work as advertized.

My Tarua 85ULB was affordable and is accurate. Good enough for me.

 

[deanodog]

I have confidence in my model 60 with modern ammo.